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Checkback Stayman Using it after 1m -1m

#1 User is offline   Liversidge 

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Posted 2016-July-14, 07:45

All my Checkback references show it used after 1 minor - 1 major. Is there any reason why it can't be used after 1 minor - 1 minor?
We play Acol and weak no trump. We play that opener's rebid should give preference to showing shape and strength over showing his major.

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#2 User is online   Cyberyeti 

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Posted 2016-July-14, 07:51

I'm one of the very few people who rebids 1N with a 19 count, we use a form of checkback over 1any-1any-1N, but if you play a wide range 1N rebid, look at Crowhurst where you rebid 3 (or 3) on a hand as big as that.
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#3 User is offline   Liversidge 

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Posted 2016-July-14, 08:09

Sorry, Cyvberyeti, I didn't mean to show a 19 HCP hand. Trying again with 17 HCP

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#4 User is online   Cyberyeti 

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Posted 2016-July-14, 08:21

Again, general thoughts.

Which suit do you open with a 3424 15-17 ?

The normal thing in Acol with a 2425 would be to rebid 1.

If you do this and open 1 when 3424, you don't need checkback (we open 1).
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#5 User is offline   Liversidge 

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Posted 2016-July-14, 08:37

View PostCyberyeti, on 2016-July-14, 08:21, said:

Again, general thoughts.

Which suit do you open with a 3424 15-17 ?

The normal thing in Acol with a 2425 would be to rebid 1.

If you do this and open 1 when 3424, you don't need checkback (we open 1).


I am trying to persuade partner to always open the major when 4432 with non-touching suits (Klinger, Crowhurst) rather than bid 'up the line', though Crowhurst says it doesn't matter that much with clubs and a major.
I think your suggestion for rebidding the major rather than 1NT with 4225 or 2425 offers a good compromise.
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#6 User is offline   mike777 

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Posted 2016-July-14, 10:13

View PostLiversidge, on 2016-July-14, 07:45, said:

All my Checkback references show it used after 1 minor - 1 major. Is there any reason why it can't be used after 1 minor - 1 minor?
We play Acol and weak no trump. We play that opener's rebid should give preference to showing shape and strength over showing his major.




Are you asking can you play checkback after any 1x1y1z auction?
If so the answer is yes.

One form is called the XYZ convention.
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#7 User is offline   kenrexford 

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Posted 2016-July-14, 10:48

Not on point, but the part I found amusing was whether checkback is used after 1minor-P-1minor. I mean, at first I thought this was somewhat funny because 1-P-1 is the only qualifying sequence. But, then I wondered whether 1-P-1 could result in a checkback sequence if the 1 response is accepted.
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#8 User is offline   Stephen Tu 

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Posted 2016-July-14, 10:59

This was discussed back in your previous thread.

You CAN use checkback stayman after 1c-1d-1nt. It's just that there really isn't a huge need to. You can find your major fit simply and naturally with 1c-1d-1nt-2h-3h-4h on your example hand. This is assuming responder always bids the major first even with longer diamonds when holding < 10 pts playing a weak nt (so can afford to force game opposite strong 1nt rebid). Or you could bypass diamonds up to 12 pts or so, alternately.

This way you don't give up playing in 2c partial.


Checkback stayman is more useful when the response is a major because, among other things:
- you want to be able to have a 1c-1s-1nt-2h non-forcing call, so you can get to high scoring major partials, but not force yourself to play 3h if your fit is hearts. But if 2h is NF then you want also a way to find hearts when you have stronger hands, hence checkback.
- you want to be able to invite/force game and find 5-3 major fits quite often. This is much less often necessary when holding diamonds only because even with 5-3 diamond fit you usually want to play 3nt anyway. If you want to find diamond fit for slam purposes can still bid a major to force without checkback and still be at a low level compared to where you will eventually end up.
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#9 User is offline   Tramticket 

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Posted 2016-July-14, 11:07

Why not rebid 1H rather than 1NT. This rebid shows an unbalanced hand with a 5-card club suit and a 4-card heart suit - which is what you seem to have. Yes, I know you have values in both short suits, but it still seems obvious to me to bid out your shape when you can do this at a convenient level, without distorting your hand.
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#10 User is offline   Stephen Tu 

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Posted 2016-July-14, 11:24

There are strong arguments for rebidding 1nt rather than 1 when playing a style where responder tends to not bid diamonds when holding both diamonds and hearts and a weak hand:

- partner usually doesn't have hearts so you are usually going to play 1nt anyway, make sure you get it played from the side where they have to lead into your AJ of spades rather than through it.
- you still find your heart fit if you have one, since responder will be strong enough to simply bid 2h next, which you can raise to 3.
- on the auction 1c-1d-1h-1nt, you avoid an awkward guess of whether to raise this or not. Especially if we weaken the opening hand to 15-16 or so. Responder's hand on this auction is wide ranging in most styles. It could be something like 6-10. It's a little much to jump to 2nt on 10 if the 1c-1h can be a shapely 11 or 12 count. So if we don't raise, we find responder with 9-10 and we miss game. But if we do raise, we can find responder with 6-7 and go down more often than we'd like to having the balance of the points and a safer 1nt with no game bonus compensation for playing 2nt. It's easier for responder to deal with a narrower 15-17 rebid range than opener to deal with a wider 6-10 responder 1nt rebid.
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#11 User is offline   1eyedjack 

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Posted 2016-July-14, 11:26

It is not just about finding v avoiding the major suit fit. Checkback (or some variant) is also useful for distinguishing between GF and invitational hands, preserving bidding space on the former without overshooting on the latter.
Psych (pron. saik): A gross and deliberate misstatement of honour strength and/or suit length. Expressly permitted under Law 73E but forbidden contrary to that law by Acol club tourneys.

Psyche (pron. sahy-kee): The human soul, spirit or mind (derived, personification thereof, beloved of Eros, Greek myth).
Masterminding (pron. mPosted ImagesPosted ImagetPosted Imager-mPosted ImagendPosted Imageing) tr. v. - Any bid made by bridge player with which partner disagrees.

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#12 User is offline   Tramticket 

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Posted 2016-July-14, 11:45

View PostStephen Tu, on 2016-July-14, 11:24, said:

There are strong arguments for rebidding 1nt rather than 1 when playing a style where responder tends to not bid diamonds when holding both diamonds and hearts and a weak hand:

- partner usually doesn't have hearts so you are usually going to play 1nt anyway, make sure you get it played from the side where they have to lead into your AJ of spades rather than through it.
- you still find your heart fit if you have one, since responder will be strong enough to simply bid 2h next, which you can raise to 3.
- on the auction 1c-1d-1h-1nt, you avoid an awkward guess of whether to raise this or not. Especially if we weaken the opening hand to 15-16 or so. Responder's hand on this auction is wide ranging in most styles. It could be something like 6-10. It's a little much to jump to 2nt on 10 if the 1c-1h can be a shapely 11 or 12 count. So if we don't raise, we find responder with 9-10 and we miss game. But if we do raise, we can find responder with 6-7 and go down more often than we'd like to having the balance of the points and a safer 1nt with no game bonus compensation for playing 2nt. It's easier for responder to deal with a narrower 15-17 rebid range than opener to deal with a wider 6-10 responder 1nt rebid.


But the OP plays Acol in the UK. In Acol, the usual approach is to respond up the line (not major before minor). Also with 4-4 in a major & minor, we would open the major. So it is normal for a 1C opening and 1H rebid to show this shape.
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#13 User is offline   rmnka447 

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Posted 2016-July-14, 11:57

I think it depends on your agreements about when you'll bid 1 or preference bidding a major versus bidding 1 . Walsh which preferences bidding a major over a with weak hands even has it's limitations.

With the responding hand you show, a reverse into 2 would be appropriate without checkback. But how about if responder's hand was

x
Qxxx
AQ10xxx
xx

Opposite your 17 point hand, 4 looks like a pretty good contract, but may not be so against an ill fitting 15. So, a reverse seems like an overbid. How do you show this hand?
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#14 User is offline   1eyedjack 

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Posted 2016-July-14, 11:58

View PostTramticket, on 2016-July-14, 11:45, said:

But the OP plays Acol in the UK. In Acol, the usual approach is to respond up the line (not major before minor). Also with 4-4 in a major & minor, we would open the major. So it is normal for a 1C opening and 1H rebid to show this shape.

This is not my experience. It was more popular several decades ago, but most Acol players in the UK now, when playing a weak (12-14) 1N opener, accept that showing a 15-17 balanced hand at first rebid is the top priority.
Fear of bypassing a 4 card major and thereby missing a 4-4 major suit fit has been a contributory factor for some choosing to open the major in preference to the minor, but many players do not regard that as a significant problem, because responder needs to be pretty weak not to move again over the 1N rebid, and when he does move he will normally have some variation of checkback available
Psych (pron. saik): A gross and deliberate misstatement of honour strength and/or suit length. Expressly permitted under Law 73E but forbidden contrary to that law by Acol club tourneys.

Psyche (pron. sahy-kee): The human soul, spirit or mind (derived, personification thereof, beloved of Eros, Greek myth).
Masterminding (pron. mPosted ImagesPosted ImagetPosted Imager-mPosted ImagendPosted Imageing) tr. v. - Any bid made by bridge player with which partner disagrees.

"Gentlemen, when the barrage lifts." 9th battalion, King's own Yorkshire light infantry,
2000 years earlier: "morituri te salutant"

"I will be with you, whatever". Blair to Bush, precursor to invasion of Iraq
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#15 User is offline   Stephen Tu 

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Posted 2016-July-14, 13:27

View PostTramticket, on 2016-July-14, 11:45, said:

But the OP plays Acol in the UK. In Acol, the usual approach is to respond up the line (not major before minor). Also with 4-4 in a major & minor, we would open the major. So it is normal for a 1C opening and 1H rebid to show this shape.


Yes. But original poster in a previous thread below had clarified that he was playing with a partner that:
1. Preferred to open the minor instead of the major with 4-4 balanced hands.
2. Wanted to rebid 1nt with strong NT hands rather than bidding the major.

In this context, it is incompatible with up-the-line bidding. If responder bids up the line, opener has to bid up the line. But if opener is bypassing majors over 1d, responder needs to be bypassing 1d with weak hands and 4-4 M/d hands. If responder bypasses diamonds to bid a major on weak hands, then opener should also bypass majors to rebid 1nt for his rebid.

Up-the-line bidding is rather uncomfortable when playing a weak NT IMO because of the wide range of responder's 1nt 2nd round rebid as explained. Opener is often stuck between raising or not. So this explains somewhat why most Acol people are opening the major instead of the minor to avoid this issue. Although you still have the rather uncomfortable question of when to raise over 1M-1nt, which can also be wide ranging. I think it used to be not as bad, because Acol used extremely light 2/1s, with many NF rebids, so 1nt was quite weak and limited and could be passed comfortably with strong NT. But I think Acol has trended to slightly stronger 2/1s over the years which expanded the range of 1nt. It's because of these issues that I personally would rather pair 5 cd majors with a weak NT, and 4 cd majors with a strong NT.
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#16 User is online   Cyberyeti 

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Posted 2016-July-14, 13:55

View PostStephen Tu, on 2016-July-14, 13:27, said:

Yes. But original poster in a previous thread below had clarified that he was playing with a partner that:
1. Preferred to open the minor instead of the major with 4-4 balanced hands.
2. Wanted to rebid 1nt with strong NT hands rather than bidding the major.

In this context, it is incompatible with up-the-line bidding. If responder bids up the line, opener has to bid up the line. But if opener is bypassing majors over 1d, responder needs to be bypassing 1d with weak hands and 4-4 M/d hands. If responder bypasses diamonds to bid a major on weak hands, then opener should also bypass majors to rebid 1nt for his rebid.

Up-the-line bidding is rather uncomfortable when playing a weak NT IMO because of the wide range of responder's 1nt 2nd round rebid as explained. Opener is often stuck between raising or not. So this explains somewhat why most Acol people are opening the major instead of the minor to avoid this issue. Although you still have the rather uncomfortable question of when to raise over 1M-1nt, which can also be wide ranging. I think it used to be not as bad, because Acol used extremely light 2/1s, with many NF rebids, so 1nt was quite weak and limited and could be passed comfortably with strong NT. But I think Acol has trended to slightly stronger 2/1s over the years which expanded the range of 1nt. It's because of these issues that I personally would rather pair 5 cd majors with a weak NT, and 4 cd majors with a strong NT.


Actually it isn't incompatible with up the line bidding, but you need to make a different adjustment which I wouldn't necessarily recommend to N/B although once you understand it, works well.

What we do is play a 15-bad 19 1N rebid with no gap to our good 19-21 2N opener and open the minor with 4M4m32. (The reason is to accommodate 1x-1y-2N as unbalanced GF)

We then play Crowhurst where responder shows range and shape in response to the 2 relay.

Part of the reason this works is that responder rarely passes the 1N rebid, and when he does bad 19 opposite 5-6 often doesn't make game anyway so 1N= doesn't lose to 2+1, it gains v 4-1. Yes you play 2N on 15 opposite 7 occasionally and this is the downside.
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#17 User is offline   The_Badger 

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Posted 2016-July-15, 07:31

hi Liversidge (Terry)

I try to be complementary on here and try not to criticise, but someone (bridge teacher, perhaps?) or some books are making life very difficult for you.

Ok, Acol's evolved since the days of 4 card majors, and many players now play 5 card versions these days (I personally call this "Bastardised Acol" for good reason, as Acol evolved trying to find a 4-4 major fit as opposed to 5-3) But times change.

Not that I've read it myself, but the best reviewed Acol book on Amazon is Acol From Scratch...by Nigel J Jones. As it was published in 2015 it is virtually up to date.

Given that you state that you are a 'Beginner' on your profile, Terry, I get maybe the impression you are trying to run before you can walk, seeing all these fancy conventions that some of the 'experts' use.

Conventions will not make you an expert, but they do help in certain situations, but hinder in others.

The best way for you and your regular partner to progress is probably both buy a copy of this book, and bid and play exactly as it says. Forgot about too many fancy conventions at this stage, like Checkback or XYZ, except if they are included within this text. A good system grounding from a good bridge book is worth its weight in gold, and if you and your partners are singing off the same 'hymn sheet' so to speak, then success and results will come your way.

Conventions are secondary considerations that can be tacked on to the main system as you progress.

Even though Ron Klinger is a prolific bridge author, and well-respected by me, reading too many books on the same subject by the same author can sometimes confuse.

I learnt bridge myself by concentrating on one book, Begin Bridge by G C H Fox, and whilst it is a little bit out of date these days, it is a good grounding for playing 4 card major Acol with a Strong NT.

Good luck!
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#18 User is offline   Ishudav 

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Posted 2016-July-15, 12:47

Re "We play that opener's rebid should give preference to showing shape and strength over showing his major."

Assuming balanced is 4333 or 5332, then you rebid 1NT if in the correct range.

Assuming 5431 is unbalanced, then you rebid 1 of your major, 11 - 18.

With 5242 - semi-balanced - you have to discuss with partner. I have had various agreements with various partners for 50 years, but whatever you agree with a particular partner, stick to it!
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#19 User is offline   jmcilkley 

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Posted 2016-July-15, 15:32

I don't understand the 1nt rebid. Using Crowhurst 2nt would show 19 points. But what's wrong with 1h? Opening bid and a reply is forcing to 1nt so partner isn't going to pass 1nt.
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#20 User is offline   msjennifer 

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Posted 2016-July-15, 16:10

View PostCyberyeti, on 2016-July-14, 07:51, said:

I'm one of the very few people who rebids 1N with a 19 count, we use a form of checkback over 1any-1any-1N, but if you play a wide range 1N rebid, look at Crowhurst where you rebid 3 (or 3) on a hand as big as that.
Yes.This is the correct way when playing Crowhirst.
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