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Transfers after opps overcall 1♠

#1 User is offline   mgoetze 

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Posted 2014-December-10, 21:55

Does anyone play transfers when opps overcall 1, e.g.

1-(1)-...

...-1NT clubs
...-2 diamonds
...-2 heart raise I
...-2 heart raise II

or something similar after 1-(1) (especially in a 1=2+ clubs context)?

If so, what are your experiences, and would you be willing to share some details of your structure?
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#2 User is offline   foobar 

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Posted 2014-December-10, 22:11

View Postmgoetze, on 2014-December-10, 21:55, said:

Does anyone play transfers when opps overcall 1, e.g.

1-(1)-...

...-1NT clubs
...-2 diamonds
...-2 heart raise I
...-2 heart raise II

or something similar after 1-(1) (especially in a 1=2+ clubs context)?

If so, what are your experiences, and would you be willing to share some details of your structure?


I did play it in a partnership in this specific sequence and also over 1 - (1M). We didn't have much by way of follow-ups, except that we said it would be the same as the more common transfers over 1M - (X).

We also played some transfers (switch) after 1M - (2) and NFBs over 1M - (2).

I don't recollect any major triumphs or disasters, but it fit very well into the light limited opening structure (with strong opening).
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#3 User is offline   mgoetze 

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Posted 2014-December-10, 22:18

View Postfoobar, on 2014-December-10, 22:11, said:

We also played some transfers (switch) after 1M - (2)

You mean 2 hearts, 2 spades, 2 diamonds? I've played that over 1-(2) actually.
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#4 User is offline   Cthulhu D 

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Posted 2014-December-10, 22:56

We've just started playing this:

1H-(1S)

Pass	Denies 3 hearts, any 5 card suit and 8 or more points
X	Clubs or balanced misfit, or balanced too strong for 3NT
1N	Natural with stopper
2C	Xfer to Diamonds
2D	Sound hearts raise
2H	Competitive raise
2S	Mixed Raise 4 Hearts
2N	limit+ for H (systems on)
3x	Fit Jump 
3H	preemptive
3S	asking for S stopper for 3N
3NT	To play


Loosely based on inquiry's stuff.

I'm... not sure what I think. Two raises to 2H is great, the lack of a minors bid is.. slightly painful but not a show stopper?

I'm not sure I'd enjoy playing 1N as artificial here. Dunno.

As for 1C-(1S) I've looked at trying:

X	Bal or 5+ clubs (or maybe both minors?)
1N	Minors or 5+ diamonds
2C	4+ Hearts 1RF - this bid is massively poor. 
2D	5+ Hearts, Invite+
2H	5+ Hearts, NF
2S	Limit Raise
2NT	Weak clubs (really terrible, suggests not bidding 3NT vs a good hand) or GF
3C	preemptive (stronger than 2NT, suggests possible 3NT vs a good hand)
3D	Fit Jump (4+ Clubs 5+ this suit)
3H	Fit Jump (4+ Clubs 5+ this suit)
3S	asking for S stopper for 3N
3NT	To play


I'm even less sure about this because it's hard to find both minors.
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#5 User is offline   mgoetze 

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Posted 2014-December-10, 23:03

Ah, double for clubs instead of 1NT, not a bad idea.
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#6 User is offline   Cthulhu D 

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Posted 2014-December-10, 23:31

View Postmgoetze, on 2014-December-10, 23:03, said:

Ah, double for clubs instead of 1NT, not a bad idea.


With the 1C-(1S) auction, it would be good to have the following hands across double, 1N, 2C, 2D:

Neg double type hand
Balanced (1N type hand)
Constructive club hands
Constructive diamond hands
Both minors type hands (otherwise it is too easy to lose important diamond fits when they compete to 2S, particularly at match points).

I don't know how to do it though.

I think it would be a good idea to make it clear which of the heart raises suggest bidding 3H over 2S as well when defining your system. The most common auctions are

1H-(1S)-2D/2H-(2S) and we don't have the shared understanding yet of when to bid 3.
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#7 User is offline   mgoetze 

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Posted 2014-December-10, 23:46

Right, my thinking at the present time is that 1-(1)-X as 4+ hearts is too important to have, therefore the only way to get transfers is by giving up 1NT natural, so probably not worth it. Possibly just have 2 and 2 as NFB (perhaps 8-12 rather than the standardish 8-11) and force anything stronger into 2?
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#8 User is offline   mgoetze 

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Posted 2014-December-10, 23:49

View PostCthulhu D, on 2014-December-10, 23:31, said:

1H-(1S)-2D/2H-(2S) and we don't have the shared understanding yet of when to bid 3.

Unless you're playing matchpoints nonvulnerable, the only person who should bid 3 is probably the guy with an extra trump (opener with 6 or responder with 4) or perhaps a particularily suitable holding in their suit. 2/2 should probably be more about how suitable we are for game than for 3.
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#9 User is offline   Cthulhu D 

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Posted 2014-December-11, 00:24

Inquiry plays:

1C (1S) X Bal or 5+ Diamonds
1N Wants to play here opposite a weak NT
2C 4+ Hearts 1RF
2D 5+ Hearts, Invite+
2H 5+ Hearts, NF

But it's easy to lose a minor fit.
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#10 User is offline   paulg 

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Posted 2014-December-11, 02:20

View Postmgoetze, on 2014-December-10, 21:55, said:

Does anyone play transfers when opps overcall 1, e.g.

1-(1)-...

...-1NT clubs
...-2 diamonds
...-2 heart raise I
...-2 heart raise II

We play this and are quite happy with it. In essence we balance the issue of wrong-siding no-trump when we have clubs against the benefit of a good heart raise. We play the transfers as showing reasonable values and continuations are natural.

View Postmgoetze, on 2014-December-10, 21:55, said:

or something similar after 1-(1) (especially in a 1=2+ clubs context)?

If so, what are your experiences, and would you be willing to share some details of your structure?

In this sequence we play switch and:

Double = negative, may be a hand that wants to bid a natural 1NT but opener presumes 4 hearts
1NT = clubs, weak or strong
2 = 5-9 HCP, 4+ clubs, 4+ diamonds (useful idea for all short club interference)
2 = 5+ hearts, 8+ HCP
2 = 5+ diamonds, 10+ HCP
2 = 9+ HCP, 5-5 hearts and minor
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#11 User is offline   whereagles 

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Posted 2014-December-11, 02:52

When I used to play CAPP/1MX I extended it to 1 (1), with dbl as balanced unlimited. I also had detailed agreements for follow-ups.

It worked fine, but it did get me to a ridiculous 3NT once. Can't remember the details, but it had to do with supporting clubs in this sequence

1 (1) 1NT* pass
3

*5+ clubs, 8+ points.

As opener, I had a min but highly shapely 2-5-1-5, so I tried the jump here, which promised ~15+ or equivalent in playing strength (as here). Now pard bid 3NT on a mild 8 with spade dbl stop and I got cold feet. Eventually I passed (after all, pard could have had 11-12 H or so), but 7 tricks was all we could come up with... Posted Image (5 a farcry also)
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#12 User is offline   kgr 

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Posted 2014-December-11, 03:06

View Postmgoetze, on 2014-December-10, 21:55, said:

Does anyone play transfers when opps overcall 1, e.g.

1-(1)-...
...-1NT clubs
...-2 diamonds
...-2 heart raise I
...-2 heart raise II

Yes, we play this.
- 2=3c, 8+
- 2=3c, weak
- 2=4c, 6-9
- 2NT=4c, 10
- 3 minor=6-card, invite

View Postmgoetze, on 2014-December-10, 21:55, said:

or something similar after 1-(1) (especially in a 1=2+ clubs context)?

- DBL=negative (4c OR 5c, invite)
- 1NT=natural
- 2=transfer (can be weak)
- 2=transfer (can be weak)
- 2=5c;4c;weak
- 2= raise; invite+
- 2NT= raise; very weak
- 3= raise; 6-9
- 3=6c;invite
- 3=6c;invite
- 3=splinter
(When Opps overcall then we bid the Between Suits in transfer, weak or strong; and jumps in these suits are then 6-card invite)
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#13 User is offline   Free 

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Posted 2014-December-11, 15:01

I play Switch after 1m-1, but nothing special after 1-1.

Switch example after 1-1:
Dbl = takeout
2 = 5+ (can be weak)
2 = 5+ (usually GF, or at least INV with a good 6 card)
This allows us to bid s more easily at the cost of s.

Playing Switch after 1-1 doesn't make much sense imo, you'd get an advantage with and lose with .
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#14 User is offline   benlessard 

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Posted 2014-December-11, 15:13

Switch scheme are very often better than standard because it allow you to have a neg free bid in one suit and still have two real 2/1 & it will rightside more often.

Our opening are always unbalanced so we dont really need 1Nt as natural and we like to rightside. So we play

X = nt or neg
rest is transfers except bid in our suits and transfer in opp suits.
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#15 User is offline   foobar 

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Posted 2014-December-12, 14:35

View Postmgoetze, on 2014-December-10, 22:18, said:

You mean 2 hearts, 2 spades, 2 diamonds? I've played that over 1-(2) actually.


Right...we played the same scheme over 1 (11-13 balanced a lot of times) - 2 / 1N - (3) as well.

In another partnership, we play NFBs at the 2-level over 1M - (2) and I don't have a strong preference for one or the other.
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#16 User is offline   gnasher 

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Posted 2014-December-12, 15:01

After 1 (1) I play

dbl = balanced, or a weakish semibalanced hand with a minor that hopes to convert 1NT to 2m.
1NT = clubs, constructive+
2 = diamonds, constructive+
2 = hearts, weak or inv+
2 = hearts, constructive


The loss of a negative double doesn't seem to matter much - most negative-double hands fit into the definition of double anyway. And gains from putting the overcaller on lead are common enough to be noticeable.

After 1m (1), I think the negative double and the natural 1NT bid are too important to do without, but you can still play transfers at the two-level. I play:

dbl = 4 hearts
1NT = Natural
2 = diamonds
2 = hearts, 6 any strength or 5 FG
2 = hearts, exactly 5, exactly invitational
2 = clubs


... that would still not be conclusive proof, before someone wants to explain that to me as well as if I was a 5 year-old. - gwnn
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