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2nt openers

#1 User is offline   toosons 

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Posted 2010-November-16, 20:51

When your partner opens 2nt (playing a good 19 - 21) or 2c followed by 2nt (22-24), how do you handle 5/4, 4/5 or 5/5 in majors with bad, game and slam hands? Partnership plays transfers and puppet.
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#2 User is offline   Hanoi5 

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Posted 2010-November-16, 21:43

I think the problem is game, maybe-slam and slam hands. At such heights it might be better to play 2NT than trying to play a part-score in the best Major.

5-5 should be easily handled via 4 showing both Majors and asking partner to choose one. Then if you pass that's it and if you want a slam you go on. I suppose you might be able to stop at the 5-lvl in this case.

5-4 depends on the version of puppet and transfer you play. I play:

2NT 3
3 3 or less hearts, might have 4 spades but not 5
3 4 or 5 hearts, not 4 spades
3 Exactly 5 spades
3NT 4 hearts and 4 spades

After:
2NT 3
3 3 Asks about spades
3 shows that amount of cards in the suit
3NT shows only 2 spades
4 shows 4 spades


If you use this the only problem is 5 and 4.

View Postwyman, on 2012-May-04, 09:48, said:

Also, he rates to not have a heart void when he leads the 3.


View Postrbforster, on 2012-May-20, 21:04, said:

Besides playing for fun, most people also like to play bridge to win


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#3 User is offline   Free 

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Posted 2010-November-17, 03:16

No need to complicate your puppet stayman that much. Just reverse the 3 and 3NT calls:
2NT-3-?
3 = at least one 4 card Major
3 = no 4 or 5 card Major
...3 = 5+, 4+ (and you can still rebid 4 or 4 to show extra length)
3 = 5
3NT = 5 (now 4 = transfer)
This doesn't rightside contracts, but it lets you show all these hands easily. You can also change some further continuations to rightside the contracts but that just makes it more complicated.

With 5-4 just transfer and bid 3.

Hanoi, what is 2NT-3-3-3 for you?
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#4 User is offline   Zelandakh 

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Posted 2010-November-17, 05:49

There are lots of solutions to this problem. In Holland, for example, it is very common to play a 3NT response to 2NT to show 5 spades, 4 hearts and a 3S response as a puppet to 3NT. This is great until Responder forgets...

Personally I play something not dissimilar to Hanoi rather than the Muppet solution of Free.

2NT - 3C
3D = 4 hearts and/or 3-4 spades
3M = 5+ suit
3N = 2 spades, 2-3 hearts

2NT - 3C; 3D
3H = denies 4 hearts
3S = shows 4 hearts, denies 4 spades
3N = 4 hearts, 4 spades, NF
4C = 4+ hearts, 4+ spades, slam interest
4D = 5+ spades, 4+ hearts, pick-a-major
4H = 5 clubs, 4 diamonds, slam interest
4S = 5 diamonds, 4 clubs, slam interest

2NT - 3C; 3D - 4C
4D = 3 spades, 2-3 hearts (no fit)
4H = 4 hearts, decline slam try
4S = 4 spades, decline slam try
4N = 4 spades, accept slam try [5C = RKCB]
5C and up = RKCB responses with 4 hearts and acceptance of slam try

2NT - 3C; 3D - 4C; 4D
4H = 5+ spades [4S declines slam try, 4N and up = RKCB responses]
4S = 5+ hearts [with 2 hearts 4N min, 5N max; with 3 hearts 5C-5S are RKCB responses]
4N = 4 hearts, 4 spades

In this sort of scheme there is no single bid to show 5-5 in the majors. Rather you build up distributional information slowly looking for a fit taking advantage of bids that are necessary in any case to handle 4-4 and 5-4 hands. If there is a misfit then you find out immediately with the 3NT response to 3C. The awkward hand in this puppet structure is a non-slam hand with 4 spades and 5 hearts. This is handled via the transfer sequence 2NT - 3D - 3H - 3NT.
(-: Zel :-)
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#5 User is offline   TWO4BRIDGE 

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Posted 2010-November-17, 06:30

Here are a few quotes from my files that date back to 2002 from players way better than me:

" I have seen a host of systems over 2NT that solve most problems but at the cost of way too much complexity. "

"That said, I'd love to see how long it takes for a hand where Puppet leads to a good result in a 5-3 fit to come up. Sure, you could find one in a book, but I'd like to see one from actual play."



" I think the important issue for systems over 2NT is NOT whether 4M or 3nt is better... but in the ACCURACY of finding fits for slams. "

" In Puppet, a problem for Responder in showing a minor definitely exists " ( referring to 4M/6m hands ).

Then there is another gem posted here by Zel:
" This ( Puppet version ) is great until Responder forgets..." .

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

Your post has reminded me of an omission in my recent post: 5s/5h, slammish ( over 2NT ).
http://www.bridgebas...pards-2nt-open/

My proposed scheme involved NO Puppet... just regular Stayman.
I need the sequence: 2NT - 3D! - 3H - 3S! = 5s/5h, slammish....

whereas, in traditional Puppet, that sequence is required to show 4s/5h .
Don Stenmark
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"imo by far in bridge the least understood concept is how to bid over a jump-shift
( 1M-1NT!-3m-?? )." ....Justin Lall

" Did someone mention relays? " .... Zelandakh

K-Rex to Mikeh : " Sometimes you drive me nuts " .
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#6 User is offline   han 

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Posted 2010-November-17, 07:18

View PostFree, on 2010-November-17, 03:16, said:

No need to complicate your puppet stayman that much. Just reverse the 3 and 3NT calls.


lol.
Please note: I am interested in boring, bog standard, 2/1.

- hrothgar
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#7 User is offline   Free 

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Posted 2010-November-17, 08:27

View Posthan, on 2010-November-17, 07:18, said:

View PostFree, on 2010-November-17, 03:16, said:

No need to complicate your puppet stayman that much. Just reverse the 3 and 3NT calls:

lol.

I know you're still around laughing like a little girl, and I know swapping 2 calls in a simple system is too difficult for you. There's really no need to brag about it.
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#8 User is offline   arete 

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Posted 2010-November-17, 15:54

Here is what we play (I would be interested in any comments of pros and cons of this treatment)
It is simple and easy to remember.

After 2NT
3C = puppet
3D = transfer to hearts
3H = transfer to spades

3S is a relay to 3NT
then responder follow ups: pass is to play and other bids show the minors:
4C = single suit clubs
4D = single suit diamonds
4H = both minors, longer clubs
4S = both minors, longer diamonds
4NT= both minors equal length

3NT = 5 spades, 4 hearts, no slam interest

With 5 hearts and 4 spades (all strengths) transfer to hearts and then bid spades
With 5 spades and 4 hearts and slam interest transfer to spades and then bid hearts.
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#9 User is online   Cyberyeti 

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Posted 2010-November-17, 16:44

View Postarete, on 2010-November-17, 15:54, said:

Here is what we play (I would be interested in any comments of pros and cons of this treatment)
It is simple and easy to remember.

After 2NT
3C = puppet
3D = transfer to hearts
3H = transfer to spades

3S is a relay to 3NT
then responder follow ups: pass is to play and other bids show the minors:
4C = single suit clubs
4D = single suit diamonds
4H = both minors, longer clubs
4S = both minors, longer diamonds
4NT= both minors equal length

3NT = 5 spades, 4 hearts, no slam interest

With 5 hearts and 4 spades (all strengths) transfer to hearts and then bid spades
With 5 spades and 4 hearts and slam interest transfer to spades and then bid hearts.

I play the 3 bid as you do but:

2N-3 is not puppet: 3/ show 5, 3N shows at most 2/3, other hands bid 3 over which 3/ show 4 and over 3 you can bid 3 with 4.

2N-3red-Xfer

2N-4 Gerber
2N-4 5-5 majors, game is enough or definitely going on

With 5/4 we bid 2N-3 and the system sorts it out
With 5/4 we bid 2N-3-3-3

With 5-5 and a marginal slam try, we bid 2N-3-3-4
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#10 User is offline   Hanoi5 

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Posted 2010-November-17, 20:13

View PostFree, on 2010-November-17, 03:16, said:

Hanoi, what is 2NT-3-3-3 for you?


Erm, I guess it doesn't exist. If 2NT-3 opener can bid hearts with fit, spades with 4 cards and no fit and no trump with 3 spades and 2 hearts.

View Postwyman, on 2012-May-04, 09:48, said:

Also, he rates to not have a heart void when he leads the 3.


View Postrbforster, on 2012-May-20, 21:04, said:

Besides playing for fun, most people also like to play bridge to win


Mi Blog

In all fields of endeavour emotion is the arch-enemy of judgement.

Kelsey
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#11 User is online   awm 

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Posted 2010-November-17, 22:56

I like regular stayman myself, which solves these problems in a simple way (smolen after 2N-3-3 and 2N-3-3-3 showing 5/5 majors).

Otherwise I'd prefer Romex Stayman, which is basically what Hanoi suggested. This works as:

2N-3-3-3 handles the 5/5 majors hand

2N-3:
... 3 = less than 4, might have 4
... 3 = 4-5, less than 4
... 3 = 5
... 3N = 4-4 majors

After 2N-3-3:
... 3 = asks about spades, shows 4-5 (now 3 shows three spades, 3N shows two spades, and 4x shows four spades)
... 3 = shows 5 and 4, like smolen, gives opener choice of contracts
... 3N = no more major suit interest
... 4m = natural, slammish, no major suit fit
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#12 User is offline   1eyedjack 

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Posted 2010-November-18, 03:35

I expect I posted my preferences in an earlier thread but cannot find it quickly, so ...

2N-3C-3N = 4-4 in Majors (Responder transfers at 4 level into fit)
2N-3C-3S = 5 Spades
2N-3C-3H = 4 or 5 Hearts, fewer than 4 Spades
....... then 3S asks opener to distinguish between 4 or 5 Hearts (3N = 4). Responder implies holding 3 Hearts or ST
2N-3C-3D = Fewer than 5 Spades and fewer than 4 Hearts
........then 3N = 4-5-?-?
...............3S = Puppet to 3N
...............3H = Enquiry about Spade length, implying at least 4 (possibly 5-4-?-?) or ST
...............3H-4C+ = 4 x Spades
...............3H-3N = 2 x Spades
...............3H-3S = 3 x Spades
You can reverse the 3N and 3S rebids by responder if you consider a lead-directing double of 3S to be a greater risk than wrong-siding a 4S contract.

In this way (as with many other schemes)
(1) Responder starts with 3C on any hand with 5-4 or 4-5 in the majors or with no 5 card major.
(2) Major suit contracts are always played by opener
(3) Pretty easy to remember

2N-3D = any 2-suiter (at least 5-5) or a hand with a 5 card major and fewer than 4 in the other major
2N-3D-3N = 2-5-?-?
2N-3D-3S = 5-2-?-?
2N-3D-3H = anything else, over which
2N-3D-3H-4C+ = 2-suiters
...............3N = 5 x Spades, NF
...............3S = 5 x Hearts OR a hand with long Spades and no interest in 3N (the only case that wrong-sides Spades)
...............3S-4C = Heart fit
...............3S-3N = contract suggestion opposite (assumed) 5 x Hearts

All balanced hands go through 3C response, and this means that all initial responses from 3H+ show distributional slam tries (not 5-5). If you work through the Fibonacci sequences the number of hand types that you can show by the time that you get to 4N are quite substantial.

If you are committed to using red suit transfers in conjunction with the above 3C response, then 2N-3D-3H-3S becomes a redundant sequence for showing 4-5 shape (as this is catered for in 3C response). You COULD use it to show 5-5 in the majors, with the advantage that you get to play in 3N if opener has 2-2 in the majors. Personally I think that this is a poor use of a low-level sequence to describe a low-frequency hand type, in a situation where low-level sequences come at a premium. I haven't spent any time thinking of alternative uses because I think that the above alternative to rst is superior anyway.

The main thing to agree if using rst is NOT to use 2N-3H-3S-4H to show 5-5, as you cannot (then) show both weak and strong hand types in that sequence. Better to use
2N-3H-3S-4C = diamond suit
...............4D = heart suit
...............4H = club suit (F)
or similar (variations that use 4C to show heart suit also work)
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#13 User is offline   NickToll 

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Posted 2010-November-19, 12:03

View PostFree, on 2010-November-17, 03:16, said:

No need to complicate your puppet stayman that much. Just reverse the 3 and 3NT calls:
2NT-3-?
3 = at least one 4 card Major
3 = no 4 or 5 card Major
...3 = 5+, 4+ (and you can still rebid 4 or 4 to show extra length)
3 = 5
3NT = 5 (now 4 = transfer)
This doesn't rightside contracts, but it lets you show all these hands easily. You can also change some further continuations to rightside the contracts but that just makes it more complicated.

With 5-4 just transfer and bid 3.

This is exactly the way I play too - it seems to me the best compromise between being effective and keeping it (relatively) simple.
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