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5s/5h over Pard's 2NT Open slammish

#1 User is offline   TWO4BRIDGE 

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Posted 2010-November-08, 22:06

Edit: See my post # 8 for a refinement

Edit: See Zel's post # 9 for a better refinement !
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
If Phil's head didn't explode after my 5M/5m post, it may well after this one.

I exchanged the red suits in the original hand:


My objective is the same as last time. At worst, there will be at least 5-3 fit in one of the Majors.
I need to get the 5s/5h shape and slammish across to Opener.
Then Opener's next move is to "reply" as if 6 Ace-RKC were asked:

2NT - 3H! ( transfer )
3S! - 4H ( 5s/5h, slammish )
??
..4S! = 0/3 ( 0 impossible opposite slammish hand )
..4NT! = 1/4 ( 1 highly improbable )
..5C! = 2 + neither Q
..5D! = 2 + 1 Q
..5H! = 2 + both Q's

After:
4S! - 6H ( for pass or correct ) missing 1 key card
6S
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
Game Only...
Some may point out that the above transfer sequence thru 4H is standard for "to play game only " for pass or correct to 4S.
But it is the only one that gets the 5/5 shape across even if Opener is 3/2 or 2/3 in the Majors.
If Opener has 4 cards in one of the Majors, or a 3-3, you won't be able to get your 5/5 message across.

So, for a weaker Responder who wants to play "game only" with a 5/5, you start with a Stayman auction.... and next
Smolen if no 4 card M( ostensibly showing 5/4 or 4/5 ) and, if need be, complete it with a 4M bid... to play ( when Opener has a 3/2 or 2/3.

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
Back to the slammish auction, if Responder finds out they are missing 2 key cards, then he signs off with
5H = pass or correct to 5S.
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
..... sorry, Zel.... there is no room for Opener to make a "weakness/misfit" bid .

This post has been edited by TWO4BRIDGE: 2010-November-11, 11:04

Don Stenmark
TWOferBRIDGE
"imo by far in bridge the least understood concept is how to bid over a jump-shift
( 1M-1NT!-3m-?? )." ....Justin Lall

" Did someone mention relays? " .... Zelandakh

K-Rex to Mikeh : " Sometimes you drive me nuts " .
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#2 User is offline   awm 

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Posted 2010-November-08, 22:45

I usually play that 3....3 shows 5-5 in the majors and GF. This allows us to have a cuebidding auction if we prefer, stop in 3NT if opener has 2-2 in the majors, or bid keycard later if we so desire. The 5-4 GF hands go through smolen.
Adam W. Meyerson
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#3 User is offline   Free 

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Posted 2010-November-09, 03:54

I play
2NT - 3 (... ; modified puppet stayman)
3 - 4 (no 4/5M ; 5-5 slamish)
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#4 User is offline   Ant590 

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Posted 2010-November-09, 09:39

It is quite common among my peers to make 3 a transfer to 3NT, and to make 2NT-3NT show 5/5 majors. Then 4/ can be good/bad support for hearts etc.

In general, exploring the possibilities of slam above the game level is to be avoided if alternatives are possible.
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#5 User is offline   Cyberyeti 

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Posted 2010-November-09, 09:47

We don't play 2N-4red as transfers.

So 2N-4 is 5-5 majors to play or definitely bidding on.

2N-3-3-4 is the invite.
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#6 User is offline   TWO4BRIDGE 

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Posted 2010-November-09, 11:03

View Postawm, on 2010-November-08, 22:45, said:

I usually play that 3....3 shows 5-5 in the majors and GF. This allows us to have a cuebidding auction if we prefer, stop in 3NT if opener has 2-2 in the majors, or bid keycard later if we so desire. The 5-4 GF hands go through smolen.

Thx, Adam (awm)....

You have made both Zel and me happy.

I had tucked away in my gray matter somewhere that the 2NT - 3D!, 3H - 3S sequence was essentially "unused" since the Smolen-after-Stayman can show the 4/5.

Now, I can have Opener use 4C! ( after 3S! = 5s/5h, slammish ) as the warning bid = weakness/misfit .
Then Responder can either heed the warning and bid 4H for pass-or-correct ...
...or 4D! = "yes, I hear you, but I'm ignoring the warning ( since I have a very good hand ) and I want you to reply as 6 Ace-RKC :

2NT - 3D!( transf)
3H - 3S
??
..4C! = warning; then Responder:
..... >> 4D! = ignore warning; continue as 6 Ace-RKC starting with 4H! = 0/3
..... >> 4H = accept warning; pass-or-correct to 4S

..4D! = undefined
The next 5 steps are "replies" to 6 Ace-RKC again starting with 4H! = 0/3
..4H! = 0/3 ( 0 impossible opposite slammish hand )
..4S! = 1/4 ( 1 highly improbable )
.4NT! = 2 + neither Q
..5C! = 2 + 1 Q
..5D! = 2 + both Q's

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
Example: Opener with weakness in both Majors..

2NT - 3D!
3H - 3S!
4C! - 4H! ( for pass-or-correct to 4S )
pass
Don Stenmark
TWOferBRIDGE
"imo by far in bridge the least understood concept is how to bid over a jump-shift
( 1M-1NT!-3m-?? )." ....Justin Lall

" Did someone mention relays? " .... Zelandakh

K-Rex to Mikeh : " Sometimes you drive me nuts " .
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#7 User is offline   Zelandakh 

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Posted 2010-November-09, 19:18

View PostTWO4BRIDGE, on 2010-November-08, 22:06, said:

..... sorry, Zel.... there is no room for Opener to make a "weakness/misfit" bid .

Not strictly true Don! If 4S is weakness and non-forcing then you still get the 6KCB responses from 4NT up, and of course 4NT after 4S would be asking and still within the safe range for the 5 level. Another option well worth considering is to use 4C as 5-5 majors which acts as a sort of extension to Texas, unless you use this bid as a diamond transfer or are really married to Gerber. The method of using 2NT - 3D - 3H - 3S for this is ok but I am not convinced this is an optimal use of bidding space. You can fit alot of hand types into this 3S bid if you do not need it to show spades.

Personally I have started playing 2NT - 3H - 3S - 4H as a strong slam try in spades and sending all 5-5 major hands through puppet Stayman. This makes the old concept of using 4C and 4D as similar hand types actually useful. When I did use that sequence as both majors I had it as the non-forcing sequence and made the slam try through puppet (in the same way I use 1NT - 2H - 2S - 3H as invitational and the GF 5-5 hand goes through 2C). Relevant part of current scheme...

2NT - 3C - 3D (3-4 spades and/or 4 hearts)
Now
3NT = 4H 4S, NF
4C = 4+H 4+S, SI
...4D = 3S 2-3H (ie no fit)
......4H = 5+S
.........4S = decline slam try
.........4N and up = RKCB responses for spades
......4S = 5+H
.........4N = 2H, min
.........5C - 5S = RKCB responses for hearts
.........5N = 2H, max
......4N = 4H 4S
...4H = 4H, decline slam try
...4S = 4S, decline slam try
...4N = 4S, accept slam try [5C RKCB]
...5C and up = RKCB responses for hearts
4D = 5+S 4+H without a slam try
(-: Zel :-)

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#8 User is offline   TWO4BRIDGE 

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Posted 2010-November-10, 11:02

I have another "refinement".
Again, thx to Adam ( awm ) .
... Sry, Zel... but presently, I'm still going to use 3S! = 5s/5h, slammish.

I've generated some hands ( Opener/Responder ) using Richard Pavlicek's Bridge Toy ( XBP3 )-- Bidding Practice Dealer. And, although most slams are viable with FIVE ( of 6 ) key cards, I've run into a few problem hands, as I had previously thought about, where there is a worthless doubleton in the minors : 5 5 ( 1 2 ).

Then it hit me like a lightning bolt, and I ran naked through the streets ( like Archemides ) yelling " Eureka, I've found it" ! !

- - - Opener's "weakness/misfit" bid should be 3NT! - - -

And, the next five bids, starting with 4C!, should become the 6 Ace-RKC "showing" :

4C! = 0/3 ( 0 impossible opposite slammish hand )
4D! = 1/4 ( 1 highly improbable )
4H! = 2 + neither Q
4S! = 2 + 1 Q
4NT! = 2 + both Q's

Now, Responder has room ( even after the 4NT! bid ) to issue a warning about a worthless doublteton in one of the minors:
         >> 5C! = worthless x x(x) in Cl ( ergo shortness in Diam )
         or 5D! = worthless x x(x) in Diam ( ergo shortness in Cl).

For example:

Q J x
A Q x
Q x x
A K Q x

A K x x x
K J x x x
x
x x

2NT - 3D!
3H - 3S! ( 5/5, slammish )
4NT! ( 2 + both Q's ) - 5C! ( warning of x x[x]in Cl )
6H ( to play)

Whereas, if Opener had his minor holding reversed:
5H ( to play )
.........[ Of course the opps' are going to be tipped off too and will lead the "warning suit" ] .
Don Stenmark
TWOferBRIDGE
"imo by far in bridge the least understood concept is how to bid over a jump-shift
( 1M-1NT!-3m-?? )." ....Justin Lall

" Did someone mention relays? " .... Zelandakh

K-Rex to Mikeh : " Sometimes you drive me nuts " .
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#9 User is offline   Zelandakh 

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Posted 2010-November-10, 22:39

View PostTWO4BRIDGE, on 2010-November-10, 11:02, said:

I have another "refinement".
Again, thx to Adam ( awm ) .
... Sry, Zel... but presently, I'm still going to use 3S! = 5s/5h, slammish.

It is your system Don! It is great to have this bid available when the slammy 5-5 major hands come up because it gives you lots of space. It is enough for you to know that the bid is available if you ever decide in the future that there are other hands that you have difficulty in handling. That is always the driver for using more complicated methods - being able to handle more hand types and thus refining the bidding.

This problem of the worthless doubleton can be solved earlier in the sequence by using an immediate 4m bid to deny a control. For example

2NT - 3D - 3H - 3S
---
3NT = weakness
4C = positive but no club control
4D = positive but no diamond control
4H and up = keycards with controls in both minors

Of course you could use the 4m bids to show a control (and deny one in the other minor) if that fits better with your cuebidding philosophy. The big advantage of this method is stopping at the 4 level when we have 2 quick losers in a side suit. The cost is not stopping at the 4 level based on keycards. Essentially this is the same trade-off as you have between RKC Gerber and RKCB. For your 2 hands we get:-

Q J x
A Q x
Q x x
A K Q x

A K x x x
K J x x x
x
x x

2NT - 3D - 3H - 3S - 4D - 4S - 5S - 6H

or with Opener's minors reversed
2NT - 3D - 3H - 3S - 4C - 4H
or switch Opener's red suits
2NT - 3D - 3H - 3S - 5D - 6H - 6S

How does that look?
(-: Zel :-)

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#10 User is offline   TWO4BRIDGE 

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Posted 2010-November-11, 09:28

Zel's post 9:

Quote

How does that look?


Looks great!... much better! ... having the ability to run-out at 4M ( rather than 5M ) after identifying 2 quick losers in a minor without costing anything in the slam investigation .
But I'm "running out" .... of euros . :blink:
Don Stenmark
TWOferBRIDGE
"imo by far in bridge the least understood concept is how to bid over a jump-shift
( 1M-1NT!-3m-?? )." ....Justin Lall

" Did someone mention relays? " .... Zelandakh

K-Rex to Mikeh : " Sometimes you drive me nuts " .
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#11 User is offline   TWO4BRIDGE 

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Posted 2010-November-11, 11:37

One more addition to Zel's refinement.
If Opener makes a "warning" bid of 4D! = no Diam Ctrl,
then Responder:
.... 4H! = "accept" the warning for pass or correct to 4S; whereas:
.... 4S! = " decline" the warning and continue with reply of Ace-RKC, starting with 4NT! = 0/3.

Here is an example I retrieved from the Hand Generator:
( click on bids for explanation )


If I had used my original scheme, I still would have been in slam but LUCKY that I Responder had a stiff Diam.
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

Now let's reverse Responder's minor holding :


Don Stenmark
TWOferBRIDGE
"imo by far in bridge the least understood concept is how to bid over a jump-shift
( 1M-1NT!-3m-?? )." ....Justin Lall

" Did someone mention relays? " .... Zelandakh

K-Rex to Mikeh : " Sometimes you drive me nuts " .
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#12 User is offline   kenrexford 

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Posted 2010-November-11, 17:40

IMO, there is a lot to be said for handling 5-5 major slammish hands through Muppet Stayman.

If partner happens to respond 3 or 3NT (five hearts), you have found an elusive 5-5 fit and that cannot hurt.

If partner bids 3 (no 4-card major), you bid 3 to show five spades, and cuebids are available when partner has a fit. If he does not have a spade fit, you can next bid 4 to complete the 5-5 slammish picture.

If partner bids 3, you try 3 to show four spades but not four hearts. This is a lie, as you have a fifth spade and five hearts (at least you don't have FOUR hearts), but if discussed partner will expect that possibility. If he has four spades, you gain room to cue.

If partner bids 3, you try 3, and partner declines, you can now bid 4, which if discussed should show 5-5 majors and slammish.

The upside to this approach is that you end up finding fits lower on occasion, sufficient for cue sequences.

You can also combine this approach with the transfer-then-3 call, followed by a repeat of spades, to create a nuanced approach or to handle tactical concerns.
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#13 User is offline   Zelandakh 

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Posted 2010-November-11, 20:17

View PostTWO4BRIDGE, on 2010-November-11, 11:37, said:

One more addition to Zel's refinement.
If Opener makes a "warning" bid of 4D! = no Diam Ctrl,
then Responder:
.... 4H! = "accept" the warning for pass or correct to 4S; whereas:
.... 4S! = " decline" the warning and continue with reply of Ace-RKC, starting with 4NT! = 0/3.

That was exactly what I had in mind, Don. My first auction used this principle with the 4S bid to illustrate the point and I switched the majors in auction 3 to illustrate that the non-forcing heart bids were meant as pass/correct.
(-: Zel :-)

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#14 User is offline   TWO4BRIDGE 

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Posted 2010-November-15, 10:03

View Postkenrexford, on 2010-November-11, 17:40, said:

IMO, there is a lot to be said for handling 5-5 major slammish hands through Muppet Stayman.

If not playing Puppet( or Muppet ( ie regular Stayman only ) then I can use:

1) 5s/5h, Slammish: 2NT - 3D! - 3H - 3S!

2) 5s/5h, game only: 2NT - 3H! - 3S! - 4H!

3) Stayman for all else: 4M hand and including any 4M/6oM, or 4M/6minor
........ ie. NO Stayman for a 5s/5h ......
Don Stenmark
TWOferBRIDGE
"imo by far in bridge the least understood concept is how to bid over a jump-shift
( 1M-1NT!-3m-?? )." ....Justin Lall

" Did someone mention relays? " .... Zelandakh

K-Rex to Mikeh : " Sometimes you drive me nuts " .
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