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Inverted Minors in a strong NT context

#1 User is offline   lowerline 

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Posted 2009-September-24, 05:43

When playing a 12-14 NT, natural continuations after 1m-2m seem adequate (2NT rebid is GF; only NF rebid is 3m). When playing a 15-17 NT the 2NT rebid is 12-14 and NF. This causes problems when responder is invitational. Usually he wants to be in game when opener has 14, but not when he has 12.

Possible solutions for this problem:
1. Play a 14-16 NT! But this causes problems elsewhere: I don't think a 'good 19' is enough to open 2NT, nor do I want to play a Mexican 2 for my balanced 19-21 hands because I think there are better uses for the 2 opening.
2. Play 1m-2m as GF. This would mean I'd have to use another bid (one of the SJS/WJS/IJS/FSJS responses) to show the invitational hand. This is probably acceptable if it fits with the rest of your system.
3. Use artificial continuations after 1m-2m.

I'm looking into this third option now. This is what Kokish proposes:

2NT = 13-14, only 3crd m, NF
3m = 4+crd m, NF
3NT = 18-20, only 3crd m, NF

2 = artificial GF, 4+crd m
cheapest free step (1-2-2 or 1-2-2) = artificial unbal game try
next free step (1-2-2 or 1-2-3) = artificial 5M6m GF

Using this structure, I have no idea what to bid with a balanced 12 with only 3 clubs. Am I supposed to pass these hands? Any suggestions?

Steven
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#2 User is offline   Free 

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Posted 2009-September-24, 06:04

I use pretty natural continuations and swap 3m and step 1:
1C-2C-2D and 1D-2D-2H any min or 12-14 bal
1C-2C-3C shows D
1D-2D-3D shows H

With 14 you can later raise to 3NT if partner signs off.

It's simple and works just fine.
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#3 User is offline   gnasher 

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Posted 2009-September-24, 06:08

Not sure about how to fix Kokish's methods, but isn't this both easier and better:

2 = any weak notrump (then 2NT/3 = NF, invitational)
2M = unbalanced, F1
2NT = 18-20 balanced

or

2 = any weak notrump or an unbalanced game-force
2M = unbalanced, exactly a game try
2NT = 18-20 balanced
... that would still not be conclusive proof, before someone wants to explain that to me as well as if I was a 5 year-old. - gwnn
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#4 User is offline   jvage 

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Posted 2009-September-24, 06:25

There is a fourth option, a simple and natural solution that seems to have become "expert standard" in Norway; Just make the 3NT rebid show a balanced 14 (possibly a very good 13), with 2NT as balanced 11-13 NF. In theory you create some problems if opener got 18-19(20), but since you have more bidding room with this handtype these are easily solved. You can for example use 2 (possibly also 2) either as an artificial or dual-meaning bid, or simply bid natural (2/ is seminatural and GF) and agree that later jumps (or raises of 3NT) to 4NT are quantitative (you have to bid 4m or cue/splinter to ask for aces).
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#5 User is online   helene_t 

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Posted 2009-September-24, 06:35

This is a wellknown problem.

With Shogi I play what jvage describes.
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#6 User is offline   655321 

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Posted 2009-September-24, 07:53

I usually play yet another variation, 1m-2m is inv+, but forcing to 3m.
So when opener rebids 2NT to show a weak NT, responder has to bid 3m with the invitational hand. Opener is allowed to bid 3NT if he wants to play there opposite an invitational raise.
That's impossible. No one can give more than one hundred percent. By definition that is the most anyone can give.
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#7 User is offline   lowerline 

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Posted 2009-September-24, 08:57

655321, on Sep 24 2009, 08:53 AM, said:

I usually play yet another variation, 1m-2m is inv+, but forcing to 3m.
So when opener rebids 2NT to show a weak NT, responder has to bid 3m with the invitational hand. Opener is allowed to bid 3NT if he wants to play there opposite an invitational raise.

I have thought of this, but this requires that responder has at least a 5crd suit when invitational. This is not a big deal after 1 where you can bid 1NT or 1 on a 3crd suit with 3-3-3-4. After 1 you have to accept that 2 is 10+ (iso GF). Besides that, two relatively balanced hands might play better in NT, even with a 5-4 fit...

Steven
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#8 User is offline   lowerline 

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Posted 2009-September-24, 09:01

Free, on Sep 24 2009, 07:04 AM, said:

I use pretty natural continuations and swap 3m and step 1:
1C-2C-2D and 1D-2D-2H any min or 12-14 bal
1C-2C-3C shows D
1D-2D-3D shows H

With 14 you can later raise to 3NT if partner signs off.

It's simple and works just fine.

There are a lot of hand patterns in that first step. Does responder have a relay available to ask for shape?

Steven
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#9 User is offline   andy_h 

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Posted 2009-September-24, 09:31

I strongly believe in 1m-2m-2m+1 being any minimum and then responder can bid 2m+2 to relay or bid 2NT/3m NF.
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#10 User is offline   Phil 

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Posted 2009-September-24, 09:54

In a standard strong NT context, I've never seen the need to play anything fancy, but I do like the single raise to be GF and some other call (jump shift in other minor, a multi-way 2, or 2) to show the limit raise.

If a single raise is limit +, I think its a reasonable approach to play a 2N rebid as NF, especially at MPs.
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#11 User is offline   FrancesHinden 

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Posted 2009-September-26, 03:31

I play two other slight variants on the general theme:

1C - 2C -
2D = 12-14 or 18-19 balanced
2H/S = nat unbalanced F1 (2NT/3C NF by responder, others FG)
2NT = 4-5 in the minors F1 (3C NF by responder). 2245s may call themselves balanced
3C = min with long clubs
3D/H/S = shortage FG
3NT = 15-17 ish with long clubs, didn't fancy opening 1NT
4C = RKCB in clubs

After 1C - 2C - 2D -
2H = neutral FG relay (opener bids out shape, is assumed to be 12-14)
2S/3D/3H = shortage, agrees clubs
2NT/3C = NF

[Some people play 1C - 2C - 2D - 2H - 2S = I don't have real clubs, 2NT = 4 clubs, 3C = 5 clubs, 3 major = 4-4, 3NT = 3334 min]

Similarly 1D - 2D -
2H = 12-14 or 18-19 bal, over which 2S = FG relay

And similarly 1D - 2C - 2H = balanced

The other option (very similar) is

1C - 2C -
2D = 12-14 bal or unbalanced with diamonds
2M = nat unbalanced F1 only
2NT = 18-19 balanced

1C - 2C - 2D - 2H (FG relay) - 2S = 12-14 bal, all others = diamonds
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#12 User is offline   kgr 

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Posted 2009-September-26, 14:45

I play after 1-2:
3= min with
3NT=to play (13-14 pts)
2=either GF with something in or minimum balanced (normally no 4c)
2/= GF with something in the suit bid.
2NT=18-19
 
1-2
2-2 = transfer to 2NT or GF with something in
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#13 User is offline   Free 

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Posted 2009-September-26, 14:54

lowerline, on Sep 24 2009, 04:01 PM, said:

Free, on Sep 24 2009, 07:04 AM, said:

I use pretty natural continuations and swap 3m and step 1:
1C-2C-2D and 1D-2D-2H any min or 12-14 bal
1C-2C-3C shows D
1D-2D-3D shows H

With 14 you can later raise to 3NT if partner signs off.

It's simple and works just fine.

There are a lot of hand patterns in that first step. Does responder have a relay available to ask for shape?

Steven

Yes, the next step is GF relay. Opener will show his minor length and shortness if there is one.
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#14 User is offline   aguahombre 

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Posted 2009-September-26, 17:47

another "if it aint broke, don't fix it" thing. In a 15-17 nt context, the old Walsh/Hardy follow-ups have worked fine for us for many years. With a little judgement, there have been very few hands where we end in 3NT while 5/6 of minor is better. And damn fewer where we were in part score that has a realistic play for game.
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