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Worth an overcall?

#1 User is offline   TimG 

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Posted 2008-June-28, 18:02

MP, white against red, you hold ATxxx xx xxx K9x. RHO opens 1, do you overcall 1?
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#2 User is offline   han 

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Posted 2008-June-28, 18:03

Yes I would.
Please note: I am interested in boring, bog standard, 2/1.

- hrothgar
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#3 User is offline   rogerclee 

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Posted 2008-June-28, 18:21

Yes.
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#4 Guest_Jlall_*

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Posted 2008-June-28, 18:45

Yes
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#5 User is offline   gwnn 

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Posted 2008-June-28, 19:06

yes
... and I can prove it with my usual, flawless logic.
      George Carlin
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#6 User is offline   neilkaz 

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Posted 2008-June-28, 21:09

SO SO important to bid over !! This is a bare min for me, and vul doesn't matter for me at the 1 level so I likely even if red o/c 1 and know players (not me) who do it n/v if the K is a spot !!
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#7 User is offline   kenrexford 

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Posted 2008-June-28, 21:21

No. Not even a close call.

Real close to a 2 overcall, though.

Because I'm so aggressive in overcalling 2, I like 1 to show a hand close to opening strength as a minimum.
"Gibberish in, gibberish out. A trial judge, three sets of lawyers, and now three appellate judges cannot agree on what this law means. And we ask police officers, prosecutors, defense lawyers, and citizens to enforce or abide by it? The legislature continues to write unreadable statutes. Gibberish should not be enforced as law."

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#8 User is offline   655321 

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Posted 2008-June-29, 02:09

Yes, 1 always.

For the benefit of any beginner/intermediates reading this thread, 2 is a terrible bid with this hand. Change the hand to KQJxx xx xxx K9x and I would still overcall 1 instead of 2. But at least with the change in the suit, you could make some sort of case for 2.

Preempts on Ace empty suits are bad as a general rule. You have no tricks playing in your suit, and you have defensive tricks if the opponents buy the hand.
That's impossible. No one can give more than one hundred percent. By definition that is the most anyone can give.
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#9 User is offline   andy_h 

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Posted 2008-June-29, 03:13

Yes I would overcall 1S any day. Good things can happen, and let's get the hand off our chest while the auction is low.
- Andy -

We are all connected to each other biologically, to the Earth chemically, and to the rest of the universe atomically.
We're in the universe, and the universe is in us.
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#10 User is offline   cjames 

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Posted 2008-June-29, 03:36

Yes, a clear overcall for me.
Squeeze me
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#11 User is offline   keylime 

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Posted 2008-June-29, 05:07

1S in standard for me; 1NT 3 suited takeout with Larry. Backdooring one's way into the auction with this hand is not good bridge.
"Champions aren't made in gyms, champions are made from something they have deep inside them - a desire, a dream, a vision. They have to have last-minute stamina, they have to be a little faster, they have to have the skill and the will. But the will must be stronger than the skill. " - M. Ali
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#12 User is offline   kenrexford 

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Posted 2008-June-29, 05:57

655321, on Jun 29 2008, 03:09 AM, said:

Yes, 1 always.

For the benefit of any beginner/intermediates reading this thread, 2 is a terrible bid with this hand. Change the hand to KQJxx xx xxx K9x and I would still overcall 1 instead of 2. But at least with the change in the suit, you could make some sort of case for 2.

Preempts on Ace empty suits are bad as a general rule. You have no tricks playing in your suit, and you have defensive tricks if the opponents buy the hand.

I agree 100% with the second portion. Switch the club King to the spade King (AK10xx xx xxx xxx), and a 2 overcall is right, IMO. That's why this is so close.

I might even overcall 2 with AJ1097 xx xxx Kxx.

But, the spade suit quality is too poor for a 2 overcall.

Of course, if the spade suit quality is horrible, and the HCP count extremely low, and about 9+ losers, I don't get the merits of overcalling here, in the long run.

-When your suit quality is too low for the jump overcall, you don't have that exciting of a lead-director. Plus, you are less likely to be on lead anyway.
-When your overcall is +1, you preempt nothing and in fact help their auction (now they have a bid to show both minors and an easy limit raise and a known threat).
-When partner gets a chance to act or not act, he will tend to bid too much, or, if catering for this hand, will tend to bid too little.
-If LIA is part of the structure, the structure loses some interesting options because the danger is too high.

I used to play 0+ overcalls. I gave them up not because of the costs of getting hammered (rarely happened), but because I saw little point as far as real gains but a lot as far as real losses.

But, I seem to be in a solid minority of 1 again. LOL
"Gibberish in, gibberish out. A trial judge, three sets of lawyers, and now three appellate judges cannot agree on what this law means. And we ask police officers, prosecutors, defense lawyers, and citizens to enforce or abide by it? The legislature continues to write unreadable statutes. Gibberish should not be enforced as law."

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#13 User is offline   Codo 

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Posted 2008-June-29, 08:23

Sorry for this minority view, but this is a clear pass.

You need to discuss the bottom line for an overcall.
You have 7 HCPs and a lousy 5233 shape, your partner is unlimited.

If you improve in bidding and have enough weapons in your arsenal to cater for so weak, normal, strong and very strong overcalls, you may set your limit quite low.

But I doubt that the limit should be so low in a BI forum. Better stick to the book bids for your overcalls for now and lower the limit later.
Kind Regards

Roland


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#14 User is offline   TimG 

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Posted 2008-June-29, 09:14

While I'm not surprised that some are overcalling, I am surprised that everyone is overcalling. (Even codo has qualified his pass as being for B/I -- when one advances then overcall with this.)

I wonder of someone with BridgeBrowser could search for 5233 hands with an Ace and a King (one of which is in spades) where there was a 1S overcall of 1H and see how the overcalling side scored.
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#15 User is offline   jdonn 

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Posted 2008-June-29, 10:38

I think you just have to overcall on this, passing is ineffective.
Please let me know about any questions or interest or bug reports about GIB.
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#16 User is offline   kenrexford 

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Posted 2008-June-29, 14:12

TimG, on Jun 29 2008, 10:14 AM, said:

While I'm not surprised that some are overcalling, I am surprised that everyone is overcalling. (Even codo has qualified his pass as being for B/I -- when one advances then overcall with this.)

I wonder of someone with BridgeBrowser could search for 5233 hands with an Ace and a King (one of which is in spades) where there was a 1S overcall of 1H and see how the overcalling side scored.

Now I'm down to a minority of 0 (or maybe 0.5)? God, I must suck! LOL
"Gibberish in, gibberish out. A trial judge, three sets of lawyers, and now three appellate judges cannot agree on what this law means. And we ask police officers, prosecutors, defense lawyers, and citizens to enforce or abide by it? The legislature continues to write unreadable statutes. Gibberish should not be enforced as law."

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#17 User is offline   TimG 

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Posted 2008-June-29, 15:28

Well, you said it was real close to a jump overcall. After that, I dismissed the rest of what you said! :-)
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#18 User is offline   kenrexford 

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Posted 2008-June-29, 19:49

TimG, on Jun 29 2008, 04:28 PM, said:

Well, you said it was real close to a jump overcall. After that, I dismissed the rest of what you said! :-)

Yeah, but it wasn't close enough!

I mean, would you open a white-on-red 2 with this hand? No, but you'd certainly qualify this as too flawed for a 2 but not even close to a 1 opening.

Sure, this is different. Sorta.
"Gibberish in, gibberish out. A trial judge, three sets of lawyers, and now three appellate judges cannot agree on what this law means. And we ask police officers, prosecutors, defense lawyers, and citizens to enforce or abide by it? The legislature continues to write unreadable statutes. Gibberish should not be enforced as law."

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#19 User is offline   ArtK78 

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Posted 2008-June-29, 22:11

Quote

Now I'm down to a minority of 0 (or maybe 0.5)?  God, I must suck!  LOL


Not quite that small a minority. I don't see the point of overcalling this mess. I pass.
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#20 User is offline   pclayton 

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Posted 2008-June-30, 09:15

I overcall. I'd rather overcall TWO spades than pass.
"Phil" on BBO
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