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cherdano modifications to Woolsey

#1 User is offline   han 

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Posted 2008-June-11, 04:39

Cherdano modifications to Woolsey defense:

Double = penalty vs weak or 3rd seat opening, 5-4 minor-major vs strong.
2C = majors.
2D = Major+Minor, at least 5-5.
2H/2S = natural.

After (1NT)-2D-(pass):

2H = pass/correct. If partner bids 2S then we can pass, bid 2NT with game interest in spades or 3C as P/C.
2S = pass/correct. If partner bids 3C/3D then we can pass or bid 3H with game interest in hearts.
2NT = Either any gametry or a gametry in hearts, drop in minor if spades.
3C, 3D = spades+minor.
3H = minimum with hearts.
3S, 3NT = hearts+ clubs/diamonds, extras.
3C = gametry in spades, drop in minor opposite hearts.
pass/3D = hearts+minor.
3S = minimum with spades.
3H, 3NT = spades+clubs/diamonds, extras.

The drawback of these follow-ups is that we cannot choose to drop in the minor. Our idea is that if responder passes, we'll always have at least 3 cards in at least one of the majors, unless we are quite strong. After all, if advancer is short in both majors then the opponents have a very big major suit fit.

If 2D gets doubled then we play:

Pass = pass with diamonds, else bid your major. (if overcaller pulls then 2NT is a gt in clubs, 3C is to play and 3D is a gt in the major)
Rdbl = bid your major. (may bid 3C or 3D next to play)
2M = natural.
2NT = game interest, asks for minor.
3C = pass/correct.
3D = to play.
Please note: I am interested in boring, bog standard, 2/1.

- hrothgar
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#2 User is offline   hrothgar 

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Posted 2008-June-11, 05:58

Regretfully, I don't believe that the 2 bid is legal in North America
Alderaan delenda est
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#3 User is offline   han 

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Posted 2008-June-11, 06:06

It is not? I thought it was as long as we give a pre-alert. Doesn't the same rule as 2D showing an unspecified major apply?
Please note: I am interested in boring, bog standard, 2/1.

- hrothgar
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#4 User is offline   han 

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Posted 2008-June-11, 06:09

Perhaps you refer to the GCC which is not relevant for us.
Please note: I am interested in boring, bog standard, 2/1.

- hrothgar
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#5 User is offline   cherdano 

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Posted 2008-June-11, 06:13

hrothgar, on Jun 11 2008, 05:58 AM, said:

Regretfully, I don't believe that the 2 bid is legal in North America

Yup it is very regretful that you are misinformed :)
Obviously we have a recall bias in favour of the assholes. -helene_t
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#6 User is offline   hrothgar 

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Posted 2008-June-11, 06:21

cherdano, on Jun 11 2008, 03:13 PM, said:

hrothgar, on Jun 11 2008, 05:58 AM, said:

Regretfully, I don't believe that the 2 bid is legal in North America

Yup it is very regretful that you are misinformed :)

Sorry:

Let me be more specific. The 2 response is not legal at the GCC level...
It is allowed at the Midchart level and above.

Good luck finding Midchart games
Alderaan delenda est
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#7 User is offline   han 

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Posted 2008-June-11, 06:26

Unfortunately we live so far apart that we only play on BBO and during nationals where it isn't hard to find midchart games at all.
Please note: I am interested in boring, bog standard, 2/1.

- hrothgar
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#8 User is offline   Echognome 

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Posted 2008-June-11, 08:55

I like the shuffle. It makes competing on the major/minor hands a bit murkier, but I suppose you will be able to work it out.

For example, how will you play: (1NT) - 2 - (2) - ? Dbl/2NT/3

or (1NT) - 2 - (2NT*) - ? Dbl/3/3 etc
* Lebensohl of some sort

Of course the flip side is that you do better with your immediate 2 and 2 bids.
"Half the people you know are below average." - Steven Wright
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#9 User is offline   han 

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Posted 2008-June-11, 12:00

We found competition after the opponents bid a suit not so hard, we did a lot of practice bidding with this. We play that double is pass/correct, and so is 3C if available. 2NT shows game interest if available.

For example, after

(1NT) - 2D - (2H) - Dbl
(p) - 2S - (p),

3C is still p/c while 2NT shows game interest (not necessarily with spade support), 3H and 3S are gametries in spades.
Please note: I am interested in boring, bog standard, 2/1.

- hrothgar
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#10 User is offline   awm 

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Posted 2008-June-11, 13:21

Do you really mean 2 to be 5-5 only?

The major advantage of woolsey over other methods is that you can intervene with 5-4 hands and partner knows you have two suits and can get to your longer suit when holding equal length. The suggested method has no bid available with 5M-4m hands (nor does it have a two level bid with a minor single-suited).

In general I agree that when you're going to have a bid which shows an unspecified suit or suits, you are better off to have an unspecified two suits than an unspecified one suit. Generally the "bad situation" for this type of bid is when opponents take another call and partner is left to guess whether to compete or not -- partner is more likely to have a fit for two of the three remaining (guaranteeing a fit for the two-suited hand and safety in partner competing further) than he is to have a fit for all three of the remaining (necessary for safety in competing when you promise only one).
Adam W. Meyerson
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#11 User is offline   han 

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Posted 2008-June-11, 14:05

I mean it.
Please note: I am interested in boring, bog standard, 2/1.

- hrothgar
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#12 User is offline   MickyB 

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Posted 2008-June-11, 15:25

awm, on Jun 11 2008, 07:21 PM, said:

Do you really mean 2 to be 5-5 only?

The major advantage of woolsey over other methods is that you can intervene with 5-4 hands and partner knows you have two suits and can get to your longer suit when holding equal length. The suggested method has no bid available with 5M-4m hands

Interesting. 5M4m normally belongs in 2M - the vast majority of hands with a doubleton in the major will pass, and even with a stiff there's no guarantee that being a level higher is an improvement. Do you rate to make, on average, more than a trick more in a 4-3 than a 5-1?

5-5s, on the other hand, are often happy to go a level higher to play a 5-3 rather than a 5-2 - being forced is a big issue. This won't happen if the 5-5s are bundled in with the 5-4s. Not sure which comes out better, guess it depends on conditions and style - basically, how often you want to overcall with 5M4m.

I like the responses, btw - nearly made a critical response without reading them first, would have made a fool of myself :rolleyes:
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#13 User is offline   han 

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Posted 2008-June-12, 03:53

MickyB, on Jun 11 2008, 04:25 PM, said:

I like the responses, btw - nearly made a critical response without reading them first, would have made a fool of myself :D

Hehe, thanks. We toyed with it for a while, they are more complicated than I hoped for but I do think that they are better the other responses that we tried.

For example, advancer could have a 3-1-6-3 shape. When weak advancer would like to play in the minor unless overcaller has spades, so advancer bids 2S. When stronger advancer would like to make a gametry if overcaller has spades but play in the minor when overcaller has hearts: 3C does this. 2NT and 3C are arbitrary and could be switched, lower for hearts seemed easiest to remember.

We first allowed for 5-4 hands but Arend felt strongly that insisting on 5-5 was worth it. Otherwise it gets too hard for advancer to judge. Indeed, when overcaller is 5-4 with a good 5-card suit we can bid 2M. When the 5-card suit is weak we are probably happy to pass. When the 5-card suit is ok and the 4-card suit is really strong I might fake a 5-5, don't tell Arend.
Please note: I am interested in boring, bog standard, 2/1.

- hrothgar
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Posted 2008-June-12, 09:26

han, on Jun 12 2008, 04:53 AM, said:

We first allowed for 5-4 hands but Arend felt strongly that insisting on 5-5 was worth it.

This loss would be way too big for me to choose to play this method over regular woolsey. It's not even clear you are gaining anything at all by playing it. In fact I suspect you are losing in competitive auctions rather than gaining in them by playing this method, but even if you were gaining something losing the ability to show a 2 suited hand with 5-4 is too much.
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#15 User is offline   han 

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Posted 2008-June-12, 09:29

I don't think the decision not to bid with 5-4 hands has much to do with the method. Maybe we'll have to discuss it again ;).
Please note: I am interested in boring, bog standard, 2/1.

- hrothgar
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Posted 2008-June-12, 09:32

han, on Jun 12 2008, 10:29 AM, said:

I don't think the decision not to bid with 5-4 hands has much to do with the method. Maybe we'll have to discuss it again ;).

OK, but this sentence:

Quote

We first allowed for 5-4 hands but Arend felt strongly that insisting on 5-5 was worth it. Otherwise it gets too hard for advancer to judge.


strongly implied to me that it would become unplayable if 2D could be 5-4 so you were forced to play it 5-5 to make it work (which is not the case with woolsey).

I guess I should ask this, what do you feel the advantages are of this method over normal woolsey?
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#17 User is offline   han 

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Posted 2008-June-12, 09:40

To my mind the advantage is the ability to bid the natural 2M.

I don't think that it is the difference in method that makes it tougher for advancer, I didn't intend the comment as such.
Please note: I am interested in boring, bog standard, 2/1.

- hrothgar
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#18 Guest_Jlall_*

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Posted 2008-June-12, 09:41

han, on Jun 12 2008, 10:40 AM, said:

To my mind the advantage is the ability to bid the natural 2M.

I don't think that it is the difference in method that makes it tougher for advancer, I didn't intend the comment as such.

OK, I misinterpretted sorry.

What is the advantage of a natural 2M rather than 2D showing 1M?
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#19 User is offline   han 

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Posted 2008-June-12, 09:57

It seems to me that in competitive auctions (e.g. 3rd hand bidding 2NT lebensohl) it is advantageous to know for sure what major partner has.

It also gives the opponents fewer options. For example, if you bid 2D with spades then the opponents can bid 2H which they would not be able to do over 2S. They can also double and double or pass and double, and bid 2NT directly as lebensohl, double followed by 2NT as invitational and pass followed by 2NT as scrambling.

It is of course a trade-off because compared to standard woolsey the opponents now gain these options when we have the major-minor 2-suiters. It is not 100% clear what is more frequent and what is more important. Any specific 2-suiter is less frequent than any specific single-suiter but we are trading four 2-suiters for two 1-suiters.
Please note: I am interested in boring, bog standard, 2/1.

- hrothgar
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#20 User is offline   pclayton 

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Posted 2008-June-12, 10:03

I don't want to give up on 5M4m hands. They are fairly common and you want to get in a NT with shape.

However I also like the idea of 2M as natural here, for the same reason I like playing Meckwell. The hand type is fairly common, and the call is simple and preemptive.

But I love 2 as the majors too.

Handano agrees that this is a sensible starting place and foundation.

Here's another way you could switch around the bids:

Double = Several hand types. Can be clubs and a 4 card major, or a Major and a 4 or 5 card minor (clubs only?)

2 = majors

2 = like DONT - Diamonds and a 4 card major (5?)

2M / 3 minor = natural.

Responding to double:

2 - pass with clubs, 2M with 5-4
2 - no tolerance for clubs; tell me your 4 or 5 card major
2M = natural; 6+
2N = strong hand and a game try in a major

I'm not saying this is ideal, but I don't like the idea of giving up a 5M-4m hand because the hands are so frequent. Perhaps this will lead to another concept.

This is GCC compliant as well. Not a big deal, but its nice to be able to practice in less important games.
"Phil" on BBO
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