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cherdano modifications to Woolsey

#21 User is offline   cherdano 

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Posted 2008-June-12, 10:03

Jlall, on Jun 12 2008, 09:41 AM, said:

han, on Jun 12 2008, 10:40 AM, said:

To my mind the advantage is the ability to bid the natural 2M.

I don't think that it is the difference in method that makes it tougher for advancer, I didn't intend the comment as such.

OK, I misinterpretted sorry.

What is the advantage of a natural 2M rather than 2D showing 1M?

If responder signs off in 3m (e.g. via Lebensohl), advancer knows when to raise, and opponents don't get a chance to make a penalty double. If responder jumps to 3N, partner knows which suit to lead. This all seems so obvious, why are you asking?

As for the 5-4 vs 5-5: When you bid Woolsey 2M with 5-4, then you usually play the major anyway. Making the two-suited call 5-5 means advancer can actually to go the minor with a 4243 hand etc. Obviously, since our two-suited bid is less defined than the Woolsey 2M, there is a somewhat stronger case to make it 5-5 (mostly for competitive auctions), tipping the scale slightly in favor of 5-5. If you feel strongly you need to be able to bid 5-4 hands as 2-suiters, then obviously you would still play 2 as promising 5-4 only.
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Posted 2008-June-12, 10:23

cherdano, on Jun 12 2008, 11:03 AM, said:

If responder jumps to 3N, partner knows which suit to lead. This all seems so obvious, why are you asking?

If you're going to call the answers to my questions obvious you should at least avoid saying things like this! (hint, if responder jumps to 3N we will be on lead).

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If responder signs off in 3m (e.g. via Lebensohl), advancer knows when to raise...


Yes, but he doesn't when you have a major/minor 2 suiter (because he doesn't know your major). It is much easier to compete effectively when partner has an unknown 1 suited major (which is usually 6+) than when partner has an unknown 2 suiter with a major.

For instance, take the auction:

1N 2D 2N X
3C

If 2D showed 1 major, opener will often just be able to bid his 6 card major at this point if his hand is not crappy (and if he passes, advancer can reopen anyways). If 2D showed 1 major and 1 minor then responder can bid 3D with diamonds and a major, and you still don't know about your major suit fit (potentially this could cause you to miss a game, and play in diamonds, etc).
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#23 User is offline   karlson 

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Posted 2008-June-12, 11:28

If Phil's criteria (2c=majors, 2M=nat) are a starting point, I should mention that I've been very happy with Meyerson (dbl=M+m either way, 2d=nat) for the last couple of years that I've played it.
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#24 User is offline   awm 

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Posted 2008-June-12, 12:30

Yes, I should second karlson's plug for my own convention, Meyerson. This is:

X = Major + minor two suiter, at least 5-4, either suit can be longer
2 = majors
2-2 = natural

Followups to X:

If responder passes, then 2 is "bid your five card suit", 2 is "bid your major" and 2M is natural.

If responder makes some artificial suit bid (like a transfer) then double shows length in the suit responder named, willingness to compete in that suit if opener holds 4+ there.

If responder bids a natural suit, or opener bids a suit and it's passed around, then double is takeout.

Comparing this method to normal Woolsey:

(1) If opponents pass after the opening, we will reach the same contract as Woolsey on the two suited hands (note that over 2, overcaller bids a 5cM even if the four-card minor is clubs).

(2) We have a way to bid a diamond one-suiter, which woolsey does not (some people include diamond one-suiter in the woolsey double but this can create other issues).

(3) We greatly increase the frequency of the double (probably more than a factor of two counting 5-5 hands); while the double is not penalty by any means, it can be converted on occasion. When this happens it's a big win.

(4) We enable advancer to introduce his own long major suit opposite the two-suited option; this is important because when overcaller has a single suit playing in overcaller's suit is almost always okay, but there are definitely hands where overcaller has a 5-4 two-suiter and it is far better to play in advancer's six-card suit (basically, 6-card suit plays fine opposite singleton or even void but 5134 opposite 1633 and it is quite clear that 2 is better than 2 or 3m).

(5) Most people play transfers over double, which gives us a lot of opportunities to find our fits opposite the two-suited options (i.e. double the transfer bid, double for takeout when opener accepts the transfer). There are also sequences like 1NT-2(one major)-2NT(clubs) and advancer has a mediocre 2434 hand. Do we want to commit to the three-level opposite what is probably a spade one-suiter? Doubtful. But opposite a heart one-suiter passing out 3 could be embarrassing. In fact I even had a hand in the LM pairs a few years back where the opponents had a nine card spade fit and I was 1-4 in the majors on this very auction. Assuming partner had spades I allowed the opponents to play in 3m. While this might've been a loss for them (they were cold for 3 and could only make eight tricks in their minor) they ended up winning the board substantially -- a combination of the fact that we were cold for 4 and that partner misdefended the hand (well double dummy, his duck of my spade lead seemed normal at the time) because he couldn't visualize the weird distributions around the table.

(6) Unlike Woolsey, Meyerson is general chart and is allowed in all ACBL events.

(7) Most opponents simply can't believe that we play a natural 2 overcall, especially when the rest of our methods include a lot of conventions. We get a lot of disbelieving stares and questions about it. This might make playing the convention worthwhile even if it wasn't good on technical merits. :)
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#25 User is offline   han 

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Posted 2008-June-12, 13:53

What we do with 5-4's is not so much a matter of what gadget we play but rather how we use the bids. The comments are greatly appreciated though.
Please note: I am interested in boring, bog standard, 2/1.

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#26 User is offline   helene_t 

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Posted 2008-June-12, 14:16

Well if you don't want to bid the 5-4's then the frequency of the 2-suiters become quite low and it sounds like a good idea to allocate the more effective natural overcalls to the 1-suiters. OTOH if you do want to bid the 5-4's then I would prefer standard Woolsey. (Of course there is a gray zone in between where one bids some but not most 5-4's).
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#27 User is offline   rbforster 

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Posted 2008-June-12, 16:42

helene_t, on Jun 12 2008, 03:16 PM, said:

Of course there is a gray zone in between where one bids some but not most 5-4's.

You mean a gray area where you bid some but not most 4-4's? ;) NV vs V over 1NT maybe?
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#28 User is offline   han 

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Posted 2008-June-13, 04:09

Clearly NF vs NF is the situation where you'd most want to enter the auction Rob. And if I would come in with a 4-4 hand then I would sell it as a 4-card major plus 5+ minor instead of a 5-card major plus 4-card minor.
Please note: I am interested in boring, bog standard, 2/1.

- hrothgar
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#29 User is offline   PrecisionL 

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Posted 2008-June-13, 06:26

Interesting, very interesting. :D

A NT defense should be able to show all of the one-suiters and perhaps 5 of the 6 two-suiters.

Woolsey isn't legal in ACBLand GCC, so I have been experimenting in local games with one that shows 9 of the 10 combinations:

X = Transfer to 2: 6, or majors (5-4+), or 4 + 5. After 2, transfer to 5M (or stronger M) with majors, 2 = 4 + 5
2 = Transfer to : 6 or 2/2 = 5 + 4(5)M
2 = Transfer to : 6
2 = Transfer to : 6
2 = 5 + 4m

Larry
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#30 User is offline   glen 

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Posted 2008-June-13, 06:49

PrecisionL, on Jun 13 2008, 08:26 AM, said:

... that shows 9 of the 10 combinations: ...

Isn't missing 5+4m and 4+5 missing 2 (or more) combos?
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#31 User is offline   PrecisionL 

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Posted 2008-June-13, 07:41

officeglen, on Jun 13 2008, 07:49 AM, said:

PrecisionL, on Jun 13 2008, 08:26 AM, said:

... that shows 9 of the 10 combinations: ...

Isn't missing 5+4m and 4+5 missing 2 (or more) combos?

Well, not exactly. I edited the post for 5 & 4(5)M. That leaves & out, but that is the limitation of the method. Do you have a recommendation?

Maybe BROSS by Kleinman?

Larry
Ultra Relay: see Daniel's web page: https://bridgewithda...19/07/Ultra.pdf
C3: Copious Canape is still my favorite system. (Ultra upgraded, PM me for notes)

Played a Mosca (Nightmare-Fantunes-Millennium like) system with canapé, 11-14 NT with Keri Invites and Intermediate 2 bids (10-14), & 15+ 1 opener with transfer negatives @ 1-level & transfer positives @ the 2- and 3-levels. Canape after opening 1 or 1 (into a minor suit only).

Santa Fe Precision published 8/19. TOP3 published 11/20. Also Magic experiment (Science Modernized) with Lenzo. 2020: Jan Eric Larsson's Cottontail Club. 2021: C3 Reborn - T-Precision with Relays & 4cd M. BFUN (Bridge For the UNbalanced) 2020: Canape & Strong , 2021: Canary Club.
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#32 User is offline   Free 

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Posted 2008-June-13, 08:32

PrecisionL, on Jun 13 2008, 01:26 PM, said:

Interesting, very interesting. :)

A NT defense should be able to show all of the one-suiters and perhaps 5 of the 6 two-suiters.

Woolsey isn't legal in ACBLand GCC, so I have been experimenting in local games with one that shows 9 of the 10 combinations:

X = Transfer to 2: 6, or majors (5-4+), or 4 + 5. After 2, transfer to 5M (or stronger M) with majors, 2 = 4 + 5
2 = Transfer to : 6 or 2/2 = 5 + 4(5)M
2 = Transfer to : 6
2 = Transfer to : 6
2 = 5 + 4m

Larry

This is allowed, but Woolsey isn't? OMG! :(

Btw, I would rather change something:
2 = 6 or 5&4m
2 = natural
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#33 User is offline   glen 

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Posted 2008-June-13, 18:40

PrecisionL, on Jun 13 2008, 09:41 AM, said:

... Do you have a recommendation?  Maybe BROSS by Kleinman?

You could play modified Meyerson (mM):

Double: Major/minor two suiter
--2: asks longest suit (pass with long s)
--2: asks best major
--2/: to play
2: Both majors or s (the lol adjustment, though they just alert it as majors and then s get introduced later)
--Pass: either I have s or I bet you do
--2: bid your best suit
--2/2/3: Pass or correct
--2NT: describe your hand, 3=weak, both majors, 3NT=s & extras
2//: natural

This handles all combos, assuming 2NT=minors.

Personally I found it a bit frustrating playing the any M+m bid - I never knew how to evaluate the hand. And I don't like 2 natural - it gives either opener or responder a good chance to steer to a major suit contract if right. Thus I mixed everything up to produce ""Confuse a Cat" (Concat):

Double: s & s OR s & s OR long s
--2: asks longest suit (pass with long s & shorter s)
--2/2/3/3: pass or correct
--2: to play, except overcaller to raise if s & s
2: s & s OR s & s or long s
--Pass: either s or betting overcaller has s and/or opps have fit
--2/2/3/3: pass or correct
--2: to play
2: s & s
--2/2/3/3: to play
2/: natural

This is just like Kleinman's Super Natural after 20 adjustments.
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