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Five level belongs to the opponents

#1 User is offline   inquiry 

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Posted 2003-November-04, 09:09

Five level belongs to the opponents
Bridge has a lot of “rules.” Examples are “third hand high”, “eight ever, nine never”, “pull trumps early”, “always play to make your contract at imps”, etc. Each of these have to be taken with a grain of salt. Quite literally, bridge rules are made to be broken. Some should be seldom broken, some much more often.

One "bridge rule" you may (or may not) be familiar with is “The five level belongs to the opponents.” Basically what this rule means is if the opponents bid to the five level, you should let them play there, either doubled or not. That is, don’t try to outbid them at the five level. As a general rule, this is a particularily good one, especially for beginners. But as is the case for all the other rules above, this one should not be followed blindly either. Here are four hands from last night on the BBO (three from the Abalucy tournament). Let’s see how well you do on them.

HAND 1
Dealer West, Imps
Vuln. EW

As north you hold:

S 872
H 652
D QJT
C Q432

The bidding you hear is:

W N E South
1H P 2H 2S
Dbl P 3C 3D 2Sx = game try
3S P 4H DBL
P 4S P P
5H ?

What do you bid? Pass, dbl, 5S?


HAND 2
Dealer West, Imps
Vuln. None

You are south this time, and are amazed to hear partner’s Michaels cue-bid

S AQ
H QT9874
D A943
C 9

1D 2D 2S 4H 2S = not alerted, so assume natural
P P 5C ?

Ok, 4H was a terrific underbid (IMHO), but this is the auction at the table. I would have bid 3D in all likelihood, and if that is doubled back to me, I would redouble. But the question is what do you do over the 5C bid? Pass, DBL, 5H, 5D, other?


HAND 3
Dealer West, Imps
Vuln. All

You are north this time, and hold.

S KQJT83
H 92
D AT85
C J

P 1S 2S 4C 2S = hearts and a minor
4H 4S 5H Pass 4C = fit jump, Clubs and spades
Pass ?

Ok, maybe you don’t open 1S. This is a very bare opening bid, but many did open 1S. Pretend you did too. Now, what do you bid over 5 hearts, and why?


HAND 4
Dealer East
Vuln. EW

You are north again, and here the following bidding

S
H Q4
D QJ543
C QT8743

E S W N
1S 4H 4S ?
What do you bid, if anything?
--Ben--

#2 User is offline   flytoox 

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Posted 2003-November-04, 11:45

Quote

Five level belongs to the opponents
HAND 1
Dealer West, Imps
Vuln. EW

As north you hold:

S 872
H 652
D QJT
C Q432

The bidding you hear is:

W N E South
1H P 2H 2S
Dbl P 3C 3D 2Sx = game try
3S P 4H DBL
P 4S P P
5H ?

What do you bid? Pass, dbl, 5S?

pass.

HAND 2
Dealer West, Imps
Vuln. None

You are south this time, and are amazed to hear partner’s Michaels cue-bid

S AQ
H QT9874
D A943
C 9

1D 2D 2S 4H 2S = not alerted, so assume natural
P P 5C ?

Ok, 4H was a terrific underbid (IMHO), but this is the auction at the table. I would have bid 3D in all likelihood, and if that is doubled back to me, I would redouble. But the question is what do you do over the 5C bid? Pass, DBL, 5H, 5D, other?



5d.
HAND 3
Dealer West, Imps
Vuln. All

You are north this time, and hold.

S KQJT83
H 92
D AT85
C J

P 1S 2S 4C 2S = hearts and a minor
4H 4S 5H Pass 4C = fit jump, Clubs and spades
Pass ?

Ok, maybe you don’t open 1S. This is a very bare opening bid, but many did open 1S. Pretend you did too. Now, what do you bid over 5 hearts, and why?


I bid 5S, my hand has lots of offensive cards but not defensive cards. Perhaps it depends on what 4c imply. Does 4C establish foring pass?

HAND 4
Dealer East
Vuln. EW

You are north again, and here the following bidding

S
H Q4
D QJ543
C QT8743

E S W N
1S 4H 4S ?
What do you bid, if anything?

4N, if possible, which will be dbled, i guess. if pd can pick one minor, i will play there. if not, i will pull to 5H.


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#3 User is offline   pbleighton 

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Posted 2003-November-04, 12:12

HAND 1
Dealer West, Imps
Vuln. EW

As north you hold:

S 872
H 652
D QJT
C Q432

The bidding you hear is:

W N E South
1H P 2H 2S
Dbl P 3C 3D 2Sx = game try
3S P 4H DBL
P 4S P P
5H ?

What do you bid? Pass, dbl, 5S?

Pass. You have told p what you have, and have nothing to double with.


HAND 2
Dealer West, Imps
Vuln. None

You are south this time, and are amazed to hear partner’s Michaels cue-bid

S AQ
H QT9874
D A943
C 9

1D 2D 2S 4H 2S = not alerted, so assume natural
P P 5C ?

Ok, 4H was a terrific underbid (IMHO), but this is the auction at the table. I would have bid 3D in all likelihood, and if that is doubled back to me, I would redouble. But the question is what do you do over the 5C bid? Pass, DBL, 5H, 5D, other?

What is 5C? A cue-bid for slam, probably in diamonds? Assuming it is a cue bid, and your partner's Michaels guarantees 5-5, 5H. If he does Michaels on 5-4, pass. You will likely have hit his 4 card suit. If they go to 6, I would double.


HAND 3
Dealer West, Imps
Vuln. All

You are north this time, and hold.

S KQJT83
H 92
D AT85
C J

P 1S 2S 4C 2S = hearts and a minor
4H 4S 5H Pass 4C = fit jump, Clubs and spades
Pass ?

Ok, maybe you don’t open 1S. This is a very bare opening bid, but many did open 1S. Pretend you did too. Now, what do you bid over 5 hearts, and why?

IMHO, 1S is a very nice opening bid :)
Ben, I can't remember if your fjs are inv or GF, I seem to remember inv, so I will double. Clubs aren't the suit I wanted to hear. Neither pair likely to make 5. Good example of the rule in action.



HAND 4
Dealer East
Vuln. EW

You are north again, and here the following bidding

S
H Q4
D QJ543
C QT8743

E S W N
1S 4H 4S ?
What do you bid, if anything?

5H. Favorable vulnerabilty, the HQ, and the spade void.


I only went to the 5 level once - I think I failed :)

Peter
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#4 User is offline   luke warm 

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Posted 2003-November-04, 18:06

hand 1 - even if ops have 10 hears, and pard has 6 spades and/or diamonds, there are only 19 total trumps... this isn't a wildly distributional hand (the type that makes the '5 level' maxim sometimes wrong)... i'd pass since i don't think there are enough total tricks... if we take 11 tricks, they take 8 in hearts

hand 2 - we have (probably) 11 trumps, and i don't have a clue how many clubs they have... if 2S *was* natural, they need to have 10 or 11 clubs for there to be 21, 22 total trumps... even if we make 5H i'm not sure it wins vs. double of 5C... i'd x or bid 6H.. probably i'd x

hand 3 - probably there are 20 total trumps, but i'm short in their suit.. if pass is forcing, i pass... if it's not, i x and lead a trump.. if i pass, i think i'm happy no matter what pard does, x or bid

hand 4 - 5H, and it has no chance of making.. however, i'm void in their suit, my Q is golden, and pard is weak(ish)... they might bid on, who knows?
"Paul Krugman is a stupid person's idea of what a smart person sounds like." Newt Gingrich (paraphrased)
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Posted 2003-November-04, 18:36

You are south this time, and are amazed to hear partner’s Michaels cue-bid

S AQ
H QT9874
D A943
C 9

1D 2D 2S 4H 2S = not alerted, so assume natural
P P 5C ?

Ok, 4H was a terrific underbid (IMHO), but this is the auction at the table.


It isn't if the 1D opening was alerted as "could be short", and you weren't sure whether 2D was Michaels or natural - especially when the 2S bid comes in and you are holding AQ of that suit. In this case 4H is a fsj.
"The King of Hearts a broadsword bears, the Queen of Hearts a rose." W. H. Auden.
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Posted 2003-November-05, 09:58

Now for the rest of the story....

Hand 1

Dealer West
Vuln. EW
As north you hold:

S 872
H 652
D QJT
C Q432

S J S T43
H AQJ84 H KT97
D K85 D 92
C KJ98 C A765

S AKQ965
H 3
D A7643
C T

1H P 2H 2S
3C P 3H 4D
4H P P DBL
P 4S P P
5H ?

With all of South's bidding, WEST will work out the club suit and vunerable 5H will make (club King, then club JACK). And what happens to 5Sx? It loses 1H, 1C, 1D.

South seems clearly to be 6-5 for the bidding, so while your hand is not distributional, south's certainly will be. The speculation among some of the kibitizers was what 4Hx was, on this auction it might best be called do something wise. North looking at 3H and hearing the bidding knows South isn't looking at a penalty dbl kind of hand. With those great diamond spots, 5S at this vul looks like something that should be SERIOUSLY considered. However, the player with these cards passed 5H as did all the three responders. Was it because the "five level" belongs to the opponents? Cleary South has done all he can do, so 5H was the final contract when north passed.


Hand 2
Dealer West
Vuln. None

S 76532
H A6532
D KJ
C 5

S 4 S KJT98
H KJ H
D QT876 D 52
C AT876 C KQJ432

S AQ
H QT9874
D A943
C 9

1D 2D 2S 4H
P P 5C DBL
P P P

Ok, this auction occurred at two tables. One of which, you may have noticed from his reply, was Ron's. At his table, there was some issue as to rather or not 2D was michaels or a real diamond suit. Ron took it as diamonds, and meant 4H as Fit Jump (I never play 4H or 4S over a minor as fit jump, since I follow Robson/Segal rules, but I know others who, like Ron, do). But not to cloud the issue, I made the cue-bid michaels.

With this monster, a 4H bid is timid (but of course, in Ron's case, he was reasonably confused... make sure you know what your partners "cue-bid" is if the opening bid doesn't promise the suit bid). I think now a 5D cue-bid is a good call, but 5H or 5D instead of pass (which isn't forcing on this auction) and dbl is clearly wrong.

Board 3
Dealer West
Vuln. All

S KQJT83
H 92
D AT85
C J

S 754 S 9
H KJ74 H AQT53
D 2 D KQJ976
C Q7542 C 8

S A62
H 86
D 43
C AKT963

1S 2S 4C 4H
4S 5H Pass Pass
?

I was asked above if 4C (fit jump) set up forcing pass. The answer is it depends. If we are vul, the answer is yes. So yes, South's pass is forcing. North has a good hand for his 2S call, and in fact, too good perhaps, as with it, I would have passed 4H (forcing pass in effect) then bid 4S if partner wacked it showing a good hand for the auction, but alas I was kibitzer. Here, the question is 5S or DBL. This time I think it is clear. You are short in clubs, and partner has good club cards. You have the diamond ACE. I would double (although I prefer pass of 4H and then pull to 4S followed by dbl over 5H).

Hand 4
Dealer East
Vuln. EW

S
H Q4
D QJ543
C QT8743

S AK87 S QT9653
H T73 H 9
D A862 D KT97
C K9 C AJ

S J42
H AKJ8652
D
C 652

E S W N
1S 4H 4S ?

This was a frequent auction. Most North's passed, and 4S rolled home. One intrepid north bid 5H, which should be down I guess on losing 1S and 2C. But a few guys found the bid: 4NT. 5C is unbreakable. Kudos to flytoox for finding this bid.
--Ben--

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Posted 2003-November-05, 10:40

More Five Level Fun, These two from last night game...

Dealer East
Vuln. NS

S J
H J8532
D J7654
C J2

S AT6 S Q987543
H QT7 H
D AT93 D K8
C Q76 C AT53

S K2
H AK964
D Q2
C K984

As EAST I opened this hand 1S (not a popular choice, as virtually everyone else choose 3S opening bid). The bidding went

West South EAST North
1S 2H 2NT(*) 4H
4S 5H DBL All Pass

2NT was a limit spade raise or better. North counted his hearts and leaped to 4Hs. The theory was to make it tougher on US. But I have an opening hand and my partner has limit raise or better, and at this vul it is not clear what good this does other than keeps me from cue-bidding 3 or 4H.

With my hand I am willing to stop in 4S (maybe I shouldn't be). And south took the push to 5H. This was a mistake at this vulnerability.


Dealer North
Vuln. NS

S T5
H A2
D T95
C AQ9842

S 74 S AKJ92
H QT964 H KJ8753
D Q32 D K8
C T76 C

S Q863
H
D AJ764
C KJ53

N E S W
1C 2C 3H 4H I am not the only one opening weak
5C 5H P P
Dbl all pass

Here, 3H was a "splinter" and pass of 5H was "forcing". Bidding 5H as EAST this time was easy, the big mistake was the dbl of 5H's. With south hand, I would have made a fit jump to 3D which would not have set up a forcing pass. It also has the advantage of showing your partner where your values are. For the beginners here is a way to treat this micheals cue bid that you might find useful

1C-(2C)-?
2D = diamonds, not forcing
2H = invitatioanl or better club fit
2S = focing hand with diamonds
3C = competititive, not forcing, not invite
3D = fit jump, showing this kind of hand
DBL = willingness to play think about X of a Major
3h/3s = splinter with club support.
--Ben--

#8 User is offline   Poky 

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Posted 2003-November-06, 04:06

[shadow=red,left]Hand 1[/shadow]
Pass, partner didn't bid 3H as Michaels. I have really nothing extra.

[shadow=red,left]Hand 2[/shadow]
5D, showing slam ambitions. But very difficult to understand right after the previous 4H bid.

[shadow=red,left]Hand 3[/shadow]
Dbl (if 4C set up a forcing pass situation) or Pass (else). Misfitting in clubs. 5S is most probably going down.

[shadow=red,left]Hand 4[/shadow]
5H. Putting pressure on opps, not giving them room to bid 5H. I'll leave them to play in 5S. But if I'm passed hand - Pass!!! Partner may hold 4S and bid tactically with a strong hand.
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#9 User is offline   flytoox 

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Posted 2003-November-06, 11:39

Quote

Now for the rest of the story....

Hand 1

Dealer West
Vuln. EW
As north you hold:

S 872
H 652
D QJT
C Q432

S J S T43
H AQJ84 H KT97
D K85 D 92
C KJ98 C A765

S AKQ965
H 3
D A7643
C T

1H P 2H 2S
3C P 3H 4D
4H P P DBL
P 4S P P
5H ?

With all of South's bidding, WEST will work out the club suit and vunerable 5H will make (club King, then club JACK). And what happens to 5Sx? It loses 1H, 1C, 1D.

South seems clearly to be 6-5 for the bidding, so while your hand is not distributional, south's certainly will be. The speculation among some of the kibitizers was what 4Hx was, on this auction it might best be called do something wise. North looking at 3H and hearing the bidding knows South isn't looking at a penalty dbl kind of hand. With those great diamond spots, 5S at this vul looks like something that should be SERIOUSLY considered. However, the player with these cards passed 5H as did all the three responders. Was it because the "five level" belongs to the opponents? Cleary South has done all he can do, so 5H was the final contract when north passed.




Ben, I dont think Dbl 4h is a good idea. Why do you think it shows 65? Why not simply bid 4S? What do you expect pd to do? If he bid 4S, it will be easier for his pd to decide what to do.
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Posted 2003-November-06, 11:51

Quote

Ben, I dont think Dbl 4h is a good idea. Why do you think it shows 65? Why not simply bid 4S? What do you expect pd to do? If he bid 4S, it will be easier for his pd to decide what to do.


I was a humble kibitizer. Dbl would not have occurred to me either. The bidder, however, was a "gold star" (Rado) playing with a really good partner (Mik22).
--Ben--

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Posted 2003-November-06, 11:54

Quote

Quote

Ben, I dont think Dbl 4h is a good idea. Why do you think it shows 65? Why not simply bid 4S? What do you expect pd to do? If he bid 4S, it will be easier for his pd to decide what to do.


I was a humble kibitizer. Dbl would not have occurred to me either. The bidder, however, was a "gold star" (Rado) playing with a really good partner (Mik22).


Lol, sorry for my tune, it sounds very strong, right?
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Posted 2003-November-12, 04:33

OK I have not read any other replies so here goes ( Icould really be embarrassed :-[
Hand 1 PASS --after showing 3 card support for S (I assume 2S showed S:) I have nothing further to show

Hand 2
5H --- AS P has shown 5/5 in H and a minor -- according to LOTT we should be safe at 5 level ;D
Mind you I agree 4 H was a MASSIVE underbid first time around --( maybe a S Q bid -depending on any aggreement with P) I don't think I can recover from NOT showing something stronget LAST time -- correct me if I'm wrong please ???

Hand 3

THIS is a hairy one because of equal VUL -- but I will PASS as I have already bid what I have --and I believe this time "the 5 level belongs to opps"

Hand 4

5 H - I hope P has 8 H for the 4 H bid AND I can ruff S (MAYBE even 2 of them )



Quote

Five level belongs to the opponents
Bridge has a lot of “rules.” Examples are “third hand high”, “eight ever, nine never”, “pull trumps early”, “always play to make your contract at imps”, etc. Each of these have to be taken with a grain of salt. Quite literally, bridge rules are made to be broken. Some should be seldom broken, some much more often.

One "bridge rule" you may (or may not) be familiar with is “The five level belongs to the opponents.” Basically what this rule means is if the opponents bid to the five level, you should let them play there, either doubled or not. That is, don’t try to outbid them at the five level. As a general rule, this is a particularily good one, especially for beginners. But as is the case for all the other rules above, this one should not be followed blindly either. Here are four hands from last night on the BBO (three from the Abalucy tournament). Let’s see how well you do on them.

HAND 1
Dealer West, Imps
Vuln. EW

As north you hold:

S 872
H 652
D QJT
C Q432

The bidding you hear is:

W N E South
1H P 2H 2S
Dbl P 3C 3D 2Sx = game try
3S P 4H DBL
P 4S P P
5H ?

What do you bid? Pass, dbl, 5S?


HAND 2
Dealer West, Imps
Vuln. None

You are south this time, and are amazed to hear partner’s Michaels cue-bid

S AQ
H QT9874
D A943
C 9

1D 2D 2S 4H 2S = not alerted, so assume natural
P P 5C ?

Ok, 4H was a terrific underbid (IMHO), but this is the auction at the table. I would have bid 3D in all likelihood, and if that is doubled back to me, I would redouble. But the question is what do you do over the 5C bid? Pass, DBL, 5H, 5D, other?


HAND 3
Dealer West, Imps
Vuln. All

You are north this time, and hold.

S KQJT83
H 92
D AT85
C J

P 1S 2S 4C 2S = hearts and a minor
4H 4S 5H Pass 4C = fit jump, Clubs and spades
Pass ?

Ok, maybe you don’t open 1S. This is a very bare opening bid, but many did open 1S. Pretend you did too. Now, what do you bid over 5 hearts, and why?


HAND 4
Dealer East
Vuln. EW

You are north again, and here the following bidding

S
H Q4
D QJ543
C QT8743

E S W N
1S 4H 4S ?
What do you bid, if anything?



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