BBO Discussion Forums: Kokish over 1NT forcing: opinions ? - BBO Discussion Forums

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Kokish over 1NT forcing: opinions ?

#1Chamaco

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Posted 2005-September-07, 07:45

Hi all,
in the book "For experts only", edited by the Granovetters, there is a chapter by Kokish about "rediscovering 1NT forcing".

One of the issues he addresses is how responder could be able to bid (discriminate) weak and goodish hands.

He suggests the use of some specific sequences, which at first sight might seem unnatural, but that after some thinking I was able to remember under the "lebensohl" heading.
The first "free" suit at the 2 level except a preference to opener's major, would be Lebensohl, forcing a puppet to next suit, followed by pass/correct.

There are a few sequences (when opener openes 1S and rebid H or S) when no "Lebensohl" is available, as 2NT is the only step.
It is conceivable, IMO, to use 2NT as Leb even in that case, since when we do have a balanced invite, we can play 3M in a 6-2 fit

Some examples

1S:1NT:2C
....-2D "Leb"= Puppet to 2H, then P/C
....-2H= normal
....-2S= 8-10 with doubleton spades (weak 3 card raise would go via 2D"Leb")
....-2NT = natural invite
....-3x = natural invite (the weak hand would go via leb)

1S:1NT:2D
....-2H "Leb"= Puppet to 2S, then P/C
....-2S= 8-10 with doubleton spades (weak 3 card raise would go via 2H"Leb")
....-2NT = natural invite
....-3x = natural invite (the weak hand would go via leb)

-------------------------------------

It seems to me that this fits well in the 2/1 version whenre 2/1 is absolute GF, since it becomes easier to show unambiguously the invitational 1-suiter without bidding a 2/1.

I'd like feedback from anyone ! :-)
"Bridge is like dance: technique's important but what really matters is not to step on partner's feet !"
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#2inquiry

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Posted 2005-September-07, 07:56

This seems to have some virtue, as long as you don't play Gazilla or Riton 2, where you can simply bid your suit, saving 2nt for relay. But then, of course, 2 would be weak, so 3 by responder or 2 by responder probalby would end the auction anyway.

My solution, is quite different. I use 2 response for BALANCE hands (or fit, or true 2/1 GF). The implication of this is 1NT followed by 2NT is lebehnshol to get out in despirately wek suit (or vise versa depending upon your preference). I also use direct jump over 1M (other than 2 over 1) as invitational but not forcing.
--Ben--

#3Chamaco

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Posted 2005-September-07, 08:12

inquiry, on Sep 7 2005, 01:56 PM, said:

This seems to have some virtue, as long as you don't play Gazilla or Riton 2, where you can simply bid your suit, saving 2nt for relay.

I am planning to play it in a strong club context, where "Gazzilli" (not Gazilla ! ) or "Riton" would make less sense :-)
"Bridge is like dance: technique's important but what really matters is not to step on partner's feet !"
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#4whereagles

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Posted 2005-September-07, 08:27

Hum.. I don't think I like this Kokish gadget. It doesn't let you stop in 2H in 1S-1N-2D and doesn't solve responder's problems when he has 10-11 and 5 hearts.

Maybe other methods are better. Can you enlighten me on those godzilla.. err.. gazzilli 2?
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#5Chamaco

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Posted 2005-September-07, 08:51

whereagles, on Sep 7 2005, 02:27 PM, said:

Hum.. I don't think I like this Kokish gadget. It doesn't let you stop in 2H in 1S-1N-2D and doesn't solve responder's problems when he has 10-11 and 5 hearts.

Maybe other methods are better. Can you enlighten me on those godzilla.. err.. gazzilli 2?

Nuno, you can find some description at:
http://forums.bridge...?showtopic=7444

Also, you can find at Dan Neill's system page a writeup in italian, as well as a description into the system "Ambra". :-)

BTW, Gazzilli was the name of a player from Milan :-)
"Bridge is like dance: technique's important but what really matters is not to step on partner's feet !"
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#6whereagles

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Posted 2005-September-07, 09:52

Ok, I had a look at it. Gazzilli from milan seems better than Kokish from canada I might adopt parts of it at some stage.
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#7Winstonm

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Posted 2005-September-07, 09:58

My quick thought: has advantages over a 2C rebid, not so much a 2D rebid. Also keep in my that 1S-3H can be used as a natural invitational bid.

Winston
"Injustice anywhere is a threat to justice everywhere." Black Lives Matter.
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#8Fluffy

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Posted 2005-September-08, 08:25

I like the idea, but don't you have 2 ways to show weak hand with after 2?
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#9fred

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Posted 2005-September-08, 09:39

Fluffy, on Sep 8 2005, 02:25 PM, said:

I like the idea, but don't you have 2 ways to show weak hand with after 2?

No. After:

1S 1NT
2C

2D is artificial and shows 5+ hearts
2H is an artificial relay to 2S

I hope my buddy Kokish gave me some credit in his article since I was the one (along with George Mittelman who was my partner at the time) who developed most of this system

Fred Gitelman
Bridge Base Inc.
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#10Guest_Jlall_*

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Posted 2005-September-08, 09:55

fred, could you post the complete structure (with followups) sometimes when you have a chance? Thanks.
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#11Chamaco

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Posted 2005-September-08, 10:22

fred, on Sep 8 2005, 03:39 PM, said:

I hope my buddy Kokish gave me some credit in his article since I was the one (along with George Mittelman who was my partner at the time) who developed most of this system

Fred Gitelman
Bridge Base Inc.
www.bridgebase.com

Uh-oh...
I guess someone should change the name of the thread :-)

(BTW, I don't have the article here, I'll check during the weekend if Kokish gave credit to you and Mittelman)
"Bridge is like dance: technique's important but what really matters is not to step on partner's feet !"
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#12fred

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Posted 2005-September-09, 19:08

Jlall, on Sep 8 2005, 03:55 PM, said:

fred, could you post the complete structure (with followups) sometimes when you have a chance? Thanks.

I made a Full Disclosure file containing description of how the system works after a 1S opening. 1H is also interesting. I will make a file for that available when I get a chance.

In order to open the file you much have Full Disclosure installed on your PC. The following link will take you to a recent post (as of Sept 9, 2005) where you can download and install this free program. If you have a version earlier than 1.0.5, I suggest you get the latest.

Once you have FD installed, the following link can be used to download the file with the system description:

Fred Gitelman
Bridge Base Inc.
www.bridgebase.com
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#13Guest_Jlall_*

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Posted 2005-September-09, 19:09

sweet, thx.
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#14whereagles

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Posted 2005-September-10, 00:23

Fred, I have a complaint about FullDisc I downloaded version 1.0.3 and it doesn't let me make 'enter' in the description of a bid (closes window). That's bad because I wanted to make 3 separate lines for 3 meanings of a bid and couldn't
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#15the hog

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Posted 2005-September-10, 03:07

whereagles, on Sep 10 2005, 04:23 PM, said:

Fred, I have a complaint about FullDisc I downloaded version 1.0.3 and it doesn't let me make 'enter' in the description of a bid (closes window). That's bad because I wanted to make 3 separate lines for 3 meanings of a bid and couldn't

Oh Whereagles, for heavens sake, try Ctrl+Enter as in most pc applications.

(edited by rain)
"The King of Hearts a broadsword bears, the Queen of Hearts a rose." W. H. Auden.
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#16whereagles

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Posted 2005-September-10, 04:27

hoggie, I make my own conventions.

(edited by rain)
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#17the hog

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Posted 2005-September-10, 06:34

whereagles, on Sep 10 2005, 08:27 PM, said:

hoggie, I make my own conventions. I don't use Ron Klinger's one's (like you... lol).

"The King of Hearts a broadsword bears, the Queen of Hearts a rose." W. H. Auden.
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#18hrothgar

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Posted 2005-September-10, 06:39

(deleted by rain

Can we keep things civil please?)
Alderaan delenda est
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#19fred

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Posted 2005-September-10, 08:13

The_Hog, on Sep 10 2005, 09:07 AM, said:

whereagles, on Sep 10 2005, 04:23 PM, said:

Fred, I have a complaint about FullDisc I downloaded version 1.0.3 and it doesn't let me make 'enter' in the description of a bid (closes window). That's bad because I wanted to make 3 separate lines for 3 meanings of a bid and couldn't

Oh Whereagles, for heavens sake, try Ctrl+Enter as in most pc applications. Your pc knowledge seems equivalent to your knowledge of Bridge conventions.

Unfortunately I suspect that for every Windows user who knows about Control-Enter, there are 100 who do not. As such, it might be better to make the Enter key create a new line in the description area and enable things like Alt-O for people who want a keyboard shortcut for the OK button.

If there is a good answer to this problem I has escaped me!

Fred Gitelman
Bridge Base Inc.
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#20whereagles

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Posted 2005-September-10, 08:40

> Can we keep things civil please?

Yeah, sorry. I got carried away by a childish provocation.
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