[sceptic]

I seem to be bidding stronger 2 or 3 suited hands instead of bidding 2Clubs as an opener

my issue here is how weak does your partner have to be to pass out 1 of a minor or even 1 of a major in both sayc and 2/1

[POJC]

In brief it's more attractive to open 2C when one of the suits is a major, less with only the minors.
I would recommend you read this article: Link

[mike777]

sceptic, on Sep 2 2005, 01:46 AM, said:

I seem to be bidding stronger 2 or 3 suited hands instead of bidding 2Clubs as an opener

my issue here is how weak does your partner have to be to pass out 1 of a minor or even 1 of a major in both sayc and 2/1

Kokish ACBL Sept 2005. This is one viewpoint, may not be majority one.
1) any 5 card major to opening of minor, 0 hcp.
2) most 3 or 4 hcp without 5 card major to one of minor.
3) never pass 1h or 1s with support or shortness.
4) never pass 1h or 1s with any ace or any honor in partner's bid suit.
5) might bid 1s to 1h with terrible hand and 4 spades.

If any of this seems unclear or confusing email Eric at:

kokish-kraft@rogers.com

[the hog]

mike777, on Sep 2 2005, 05:28 PM, said:

sceptic, on Sep 2 2005, 01:46 AM, said:

I seem to be bidding stronger 2 or 3 suited hands instead of bidding 2Clubs as an opener

my issue here is how weak does your partner have to be to pass out 1 of a minor or even 1 of a major in both sayc and 2/1

Kokish ACBL Sept 2005. This is one viewpoint, may not be majority one.
1) any 5 card major to opening of minor, 0 hcp.
2) most 3 or 4 hcp without 5 card major to one of minor.
3) never pass 1h or 1s with support or shortness.
4) never pass 1h or 1s with any ace or any honor in partner's bid suit.
5) might bid 1s to 1h with terrible hand and 4 spades.

If any of this seems unclear or confusing email Eric at:

kokish-kraft@rogers.com

"May not be a majority one" is the understatement of the year. I find responding with a 5 card M and 0 points totally the height of absurdity UNLESS your methods are so highly developed as to be able to cope with this.

Mike's post highlights one of the problems of this forum: an intermediate/improving player asks a sensible question and gets this reply. Well Mike, my beloved Italians, Bocchi and Duboin, played these methods over 1m and have now abandoned them due to complexity and you are suggesting that this is a playable method for Wayne. Well matey, if you play with me and I have a 19 count and respond to my opening with a 0 count, you are going to find yourself in game, and you will do so facing 99% of the world's players. So Mike, if you are going to suggest exotica, at least give the punters the followups to be able to cope ." May not be a majority one", indeed. Don't listen to this nonsense Wayne.

[Gerben42]

Quote

1) any 5 card major to opening of minor, 0 hcp.
2) most 3 or 4 hcp without 5 card major to one of minor.
3) never pass 1h or 1s with support or shortness.
4) never pass 1h or 1s with any ace or any honor in partner's bid suit.
5) might bid 1s to 1h with terrible hand and 4 spades.

Aargh! Sorry mr. Kokish, you are a better player than I, but I plainly disagree.

1 of a suit is not forcing, i.e. with 0 HCP you pass. Always always always (unless you have a preemptive raise available that describes the hand). I disagree with all 5 points. You must have a reason to bid if you respond to a nonforcing bid.

[badderzboy]

My rule of thumb,

Also r u playing better minor?

0-4 Pass almost definitely unless I have a 6+ suit OR a void in the bid suit and I can tolerate the next bid somewhere .

5 A good 5pt hand - shape with expectation of a fit somewhere I'd bid

6+ I must bid!

Remember partner expects you to have up to 19ish points so if you bid with 23+ points there is a reasonable chance they'll pass 17/3 = 5.6666

Not the end of the world if partner passes as you may get the opp to bid again - people hate leaving 1-level contracts lol.

The reason is discipline in your bidding , the Hog's comment with 19 points opener is bidding game over a response! far worse with 0 zero pts playing 4H-3 or 3NT -4 etc than 1C=!

Steve

[joker_gib]

Gerben42, on Sep 2 2005, 11:44 AM, said:

Quote

1) any 5 card major to opening of minor, 0 hcp.
2) most 3 or 4 hcp without 5 card major to one of minor.
3) never pass 1h or 1s with support or shortness.
4) never pass 1h or 1s with any ace or any honor in partner's bid suit.
5) might bid 1s to 1h with terrible hand and 4 spades.

Aargh! Sorry mr. Kokish, you are a better player than I, but I plainly disagree.

1 of a suit is not forcing, i.e. with 0 HCP you pass. Always always always (unless you have a preemptive raise available that describes the hand). I disagree with all 5 points. You must have a reason to bid if you respond to a nonforcing bid.

Totally agree with you Gerben !

Only half of the 4th point ("never pass 1h or 1s with any ace ") can makes sense in a normal system.

Alain

[inquiry]

POJC, on Sep 2 2005, 03:01 AM, said:

In brief it's more attractive to open 2C when one of the suits is a major, less with only the minors.
I would recommend you read this article: Link

Thanks for the link. That is a very interesting article. But I am alreay definiately of the school to open lighter 2♣ hands as mentioned in that article. The author pointed out four problem hands for light opening bids of 2♣. For fun, let me say how I handle each of his "four problem" hands with my "light" 2♣ opening syle.

Problem #1. Preempt-type hands

Namyats if it is a major, with less than 5 controls (see http://forums.bridgebase.com/index.php?sho...indpost&p=59180) I just open at the one level if it is a minor or if it is a strongish hand with defensive vlaues (ok no so much preempt) with 9.5 tricks and a minor, I open multi-2D (which I play as weak two in major, strong balanced (22)23-24, or Acol 2 in a minor).

Problem #2. Two-suited hands

MisIry, what else? (does it become even clearer why I play MisIry yet?). (for latest thread on MisIry see http://forums.bridgebase.com/index.php?sho...indpost&p=82216)

Problem #3. Minor one suited hands

Multi-2D if 9.5 or so tricks, 2♣ if stronger (real game force)

Problem #4. Three-suited hands

I open "strong" three suiters 2♣ after all, but I handle them with a 2NT rebid by opener over any two level response (by far and away the most common). See, for instance, http://forums.bridgebase.com/index.php?sho...t=0&#entry10168 and/or http://forums.bridgebase.com/index.php?sho...indpost&p=31145

[Fluffy]

sceptic, on Sep 2 2005, 06:46 AM, said:

I seem to be bidding stronger 2 or 3 suited hands instead of bidding 2Clubs as an opener

my issue here is how weak does your partner have to be to pass out 1 of a minor or even 1 of a major in both sayc and 2/1

Since the 2NT rebid aftre 1x-1y is GF, the criterium I use is: pass any hand that won't play game opposite a 18-19 balanced.

[mikeh]

Fluffy, on Sep 2 2005, 09:26 AM, said:

Since the 2NT rebid aftre 1x-1y is GF, the criterium I use is: pass any hand that won't play game opposite a 18-19 balanced.

I'm with Justin on this: I know of no player other then you who espouses this theory. Maybe it is standard in your part of the world, but it sure isn't over here in NA.

[awm]

I've found that when partner opens one of a minor, and my RHO passes, and I have nothing... the odds of partner holding 18-19 balanced go up substantially. So I like to plan my responses around the possibility the partner holds this hand. I'm happy to respond with a hand not worth game opposite 18-19, but don't want to respond with a hand that will likely cause us to go down in 2NT. So basically:

Don't need much of anything to respond with a 6-card major, or 5-5 majors. Game in a major opposite 18-19 balanced will often have chances, plus I might be able to get out in 3M if partner's hand doesn't fit well.

With 5-card major, will respond with around 4 hcp. With less, partner's 2NT rebid may fix me since I don't expect 2NT to play so well on 21-22 combined hcp. Note that when we have a 5-3 fit we also might not find it on this sequence, and while a 5-4 major fit will render 3M very playable, I don't necessarily like my chances in 4M opposite 18-19 with four-card support.

Otherwise, I like to have around 6+ points, although I will also make exceptions holding a good fit (like 5 cards) for opener's minor, since we can often back into a playable minor contract on these hands, and light 2NT and 3NT contracts actually play well with a big minor fit.

So I guess this puts me somewhere more conservative than Eric Kokish and more aggressive than Fluffy. Maybe not a bad place to be.

[inquiry]

Ok, I don;t mind responding to one of a minor with extremely poor hands, despite the fact that my partners 2/1 opening bids are, in general, much more limited than most peoples (although my partner could have 20-21 BAL which is unually high for an opening bid.. this is a new development due to changes in MisIry and I haven't thought about the full implications with respect to the light responses). So I guess I would say, for most hands, I would follow Eric's advise as well.

With 5♠ and 4♥+ I will bid 2♥ (reverse flannery by responder) with an excuse (a few points)

With four card major and either fit for partners Diamond suit, I will often respond on nothing. If partner has 17-19 BAL, he will rebid 2♣ (not 2NT), and a 2♦ rebid is an almost forced he has to pass. IF partner has four card support MONSTER fit, he will rebid 2NT, and I will bid 3♣ - no game interest, he can bid 3♦ as another game try, and I will bid 3M deny again. This probably will not stop him if he has 20 or 21 hcp, but maybe I can make it then. This will stop him with 19. As a sideline, if partner bids the other minor (quasi forcing), a rebid of the initial major is signoff attempt if opener has 17-19 BAL and shows 5+ suit.

So there is a paradox here. I open very light 1 bids, my 1 bids are more limited on the "top end" by the gadgets I play, and yet I will still sometime respond with very poor hands. This occassionally results in (as justin says) stealing your opponents blind. But it also occassionaly gets you into hopeless contracts.

[Double !]

This topic is an eternal issue: there is no answer. Some have tried to solve it by implementing weak jump-shifts, some by playing forcing club or diamond systems, some by altering rebid structures. If you are going to respond on some shape but virtually no values, just because of shortness in P's suit, you will need to be prepared for any rebid partner might make. Heaven help your partnership should you pass a forcing bid, and I wouldn't want to table a 2-hcp relatively flat hand with shortness in P's suit should P rebid a natural 2NT. A wise sage once said to me, "don't make bids that partner can criticize". Although this was at a time when I was enamoured with psyches, and one can debate the issue of what constitutes a bid that P can criticize, IMO the advice stands on it's own merits. Pass is not a dirty word, especially if you have a partner who pays attention to it.

[the hog]

1X 1Y 2NT is a gf in a number of systems, particularly in a variant of Polish Club called "Strefa". It is a particularly useful bid encompassing a variety of handshapes with various forms of checkback.

The point of my post is that it is ridiculous to say "x says this", without posting the methods that x uses to handle these responses. We see far too many appeals to higher authorities in these posts where posters post half truths or take an idea and run with it without fully understanding its ramifications. Mikes's post above was a classic example.

[mike777]

The_Hog, on Sep 2 2005, 05:27 PM, said:

1X 1Y 2NT is a gf in a number of systems, particularly in a variant of Polish Club called "Strefa". It is a particularly useful bid encompassing a variety of handshapes with various forms of checkback.

The point of my post is that it is ridiculous to say "x says this", without posting the methods that x uses to handle these responses. We see far too many appeals to higher authorities in these posts where posters post half truths or take an idea and run with it without fully understanding its ramifications. Mikes's post above was a classic example.

I posted an email address directly to Eric to have these more detailed questions answered by an expert. I emphasized that that this was not a majority expert response style simply another viewpoint. Gee Whiz.

[mikeh]

The_Hog, on Sep 2 2005, 05:27 PM, said:

1X 1Y 2NT is a gf in a number of systems, particularly in a variant of Polish Club called "Strefa". It is a particularly useful bid encompassing a variety of handshapes with various forms of checkback.

The point of my post is that it is ridiculous to say "x says this", without posting the methods that x uses to handle these responses. We see far too many appeals to higher authorities in these posts where posters post half truths or take an idea and run with it without fully understanding its ramifications. Mikes's post above was a classic example.

Which 'mike' do you mean?

I said that 2N as a gf was not part of standard: if it is part of a form of PC, fine. That doesn't contradict my post at all 'Standard' seems to be broadly based on a fairly well understood, broad concept. PC is not 'standard' within that broad concept. My point was that Fluffy is not discussing a common treatment when he uses 1x 1y 2N as gf.

[the hog]

Sorry too many Mikes. I meant Mike777.

Quote Mike777:
"I posted an email address directly to Eric to have these more detailed questions answered by an expert. I emphasized that that this was not a majority expert response style simply another viewpoint. Gee Whiz."

Yes exactly right. You did not post any continuations to this method. You did not say whether 1X 1Y 2NT 3X / Y is forcing or nf given that 2NT usually shows 18-19 here. You did not look at the rest of EK's system to see how this all meshes together. And all this was in an answer to someone posting on the beginners and intermediates forum. Don't you think that giving half the story is irresponsible especially on this forum?