[sceptic]

I am not happy with when I open 1NT with 5 card majors on occasions, I wish I had opened the suit

What are good basic guidlines for opening a major as opposed to NT (I have not specified whatthe NT range is, as that may have a bearing on your answers)

Do you have preferences how you handle NT with 5 card majors

What conventions do you like or prefer to play knowing there can be 5 card majors in openers hand

Do you think you should not open NT with a 5 card major


I am not happy with when I open 2NT hands with 5 card majors on occasions, as my reponse structure does not seem to be anygood, I have no idea about puppet stayman or anything else available in this position.


Do you think puppet stayman is a good convention or are there other ones available that you regard as effective

[the hog]

There is no right or wrong answer to this, and you have just re-ignited a heated debate.

Suffice to say that in all my partnerships if the hand shape is balanced and the point count is right, we ALWAYS open 1NT regardless of whether we have a 5 card M of any quality or not. Others will disagree. This fits into our system, works well and removes many rebid problems. Over time I have found the advantages to be huge and the disadvantages slight. I can see a growing trend to treating balanced hands as balanced hands. Some players who post here would rather emasculate themselves than open 1NT with a 5 card M. Most of those whom I respect do not have this phobia.

We don't play puppet over 1NT but do so over a 2NT opening.

[Elianna]

As the Hog has said, we've been on this merry-go-round before, but as I like horses, I'll participate.

Most of my experience is with 15-17 NT openings. I haven't played a lot of anything else, so I won't address other ranges (except this is all prolly translatable).

I will open all hands that are balanced (5332) with 16 points 1NT, and especially when my five card suit is hearts, and I have three spades. Why? It saves me rebid headaches, especially when pard bids 1s over 1h. With 15/17 points, or not 5332, I use more discretion.

For hands that don't fit in the above, I basically ask myself: If I had to describe the most relevant feature of my hand, what is it? Is it that I have a five card major? Is it that I'm balanced? A lot of my perception of this is based on factors like my exact distribution, where my high cards are, and I'm ashamed to admit: how will this affect my opponents and what my mood is. I have seen that there are some hands that I'll open 1NT, and others 1M based on how aggressive I'm feeling at that given moment, and that varies a lot by how we've been doing, how much the opps have pissed me off in the past, how little (or how much) I want partner to play the hand, etc.

For opening 2NT with a five-card major, I will do it when my major suit is relatively weaker (so here the consideration is only the suit, not where it fits in the range), one where 3NT is likely to make the same number of tricks as 4M opposite a pard with a fit for my major.

I don't like playing puppet stayman because I've already decided that my hand is better suited for NT, so why play puppet? I don't hate it though, so if that's something pard really wants to play over 2NT, I can live with it, but I won't like it. I like Smolen too much to be willing to give it up for puppet stayman.

[Wackojack]

This is from a fellow countryman who lives in Acol 12-14 no trump land. I have started playing 5-card majors 15-17 no trump with a few partners to try it out and have seen that the problem is how to handle 5332 distributions with a 5-card major. In order to avoid rebidding a 5-card suit and not distorting the system by having to rebid with 3-card minor suit, it seems to me that this is what you have to do:

Open 1NT with 15-17 5332 unless the major is good enough to treat as a 6-carder.

With 5332 and 12-14, open 1M and normally rebid in no trumps at the cheapest level. This means that 2/1 responses must be stronger than Acol, but not necessarily game forcing (say at least a good 10 count). Thus the 1NT response range is 6-10 if non forcing. (This is not a problem if balanced hands are only opened in a suit with 12-14 or 17+) Another question arises after say 1S-2D, and you are 5332 with a low doubleton club. Do you rebid 2NT or raise diamonds? Does a raise of the minor need 4-card support?

To those (unlike myself) who are familiar with 15-17NT 5-card majors, is this a fair description of the issues?

[helene_t]

With 16 points you are probably too strong for
1♥-1♠
2♥
so even if your 5-card is good enough to go as a 6-card, rebidding the opening suit is not allways an alternative. You could rebid 2♣ on a 3-card, especially if partner responds 1NT, but with a doubleton club you really have to open 1NT. On the other hand, with a doubleton in the other major it is less attractive to open 1NT because partner may transfer to the other major, leaving you in the 5-2 fit instead of the 5-3 fit.

So if you are reluctant to opening a strong 1NT with a 5-card major, one criteria is which suit is your doubleton. Playing a weak 1NT, suit quality becomes more important.

Personally, I don't have much problems opening 1NT with a 5-card major. I almost always do so unless partner insists otherwise.

[Gerben42]

I like to open 1NT with 5♥ systematically. With ♠ only if the hand feels like NT too much (terrible suit, lots of Ks and Qs in the side suits.

How to find out about 5♥ in opener's hand? Quite simple really: Respond 2NT to Stayman when you have 5♥. If you like you can have 2NT response as 5♥ minimum and 3♣ as 5♥ maximum.

All my 2NT bids may include a 5-card major, and we use modified puppet stayman (Muppet Stayman).

After 2NT - 3♣ :
3♦ = no 5M, at least one 4M, partner now bids the major he doesn't have.
3♥ = no 4 or 5M
3♠ = 5♠
3NT = 5♥

After 3♥, 3♠ is minor suit Stayman.

[helene_t]

Gerben42, on Sep 2 2005, 01:33 PM, said:

All my 2NT bids may include a 5-card major, and we use modified puppet stayman (Muppet Stayman).

After 2NT - 3♣ :
3♦ = no 5M, at least one 4M, partner now bids the major he doesn't have.
3♥ = no 4 or 5M
3♠ = 5♠
3NT = 5♥

After 3♥, 3♠ is minor suit Stayman.

I suppose the advantage of this is that you have more space available after minor suit stayman? Or are there aother advantages?

Looks great, did you invent that yourself?

[Free]

We've had this discussion sooooo many times, and it's always the same conclusion: it's a matter of preference and agreements. If you want to open 1NT with a 5 card M, fine. If you don't want to, fine as well. Want to open NT with 5 ♥'s but not with 5 ♠'s (or the other way around), fine! If you want to play puppet stayman after 1NT, go ahead...

Anyway, in Belgium (and the Netherlands as well) most people use the 1NT opening to make a barrier between minimum and maximum balanced hands. So they include any 5 card M in their NT opening (many play strong NT btw). Lots of people use 3♣ as puppet stayman (GF), and 2♣ as regular or garbage stayman. It works just fine, but yes, sometimes you miss out on your Major fits - as usual with NT openings.

[Gerben42]

The big advantage is indeed that you have 2 more much-needed steps for the minor suits. This makes a lot of difference in my experience. There is no other advantage, really.

Actually I didn't think of it myself, my junior partner (smirny in BBO) did. Anyway, it seems that the Blue Team thought of it independently (I noticed on Vugraph that L / V play it).

[joker_gib]

helene_t, on Sep 2 2005, 01:41 PM, said:

Gerben42, on Sep 2 2005, 01:33 PM, said:

All my 2NT bids may include a 5-card major, and we use modified puppet stayman (Muppet Stayman).

After 2NT - 3♣ :
3♦ = no 5M, at least one 4M, partner now bids the major he doesn't have.
3♥ = no 4 or 5M
3♠ = 5♠
3NT = 5♥

After 3♥, 3♠ is minor suit Stayman.

I suppose the advantage of this is that you have more space available after minor suit stayman? Or are there aother advantages?

Looks great, did you invent that yourself?

I agree that it looks great ! What are the continuations on 3♥ (after 3♠ minor suit stayman) and 3NT (4♦=transfer, I suppose ....) ?

Alain

[inquiry]

Playing weak NT, I will not open 1NT with a five card major.

Playing strong NT, I "always" open BAL hands with a five card major 1NT.

As for what I like to "deal" with the possibility of a five card major, it is what I found from ETM Victory over 1NT from the www.bridgematters.com site. It is the best. Briefly,

1NT - 3D = puppet stayman. Game going hand, checking for five card major on way

I will also point out this sequence which deals with opener having five hearts.
1NT - 2D = jacoby transfer, with a twist. Responder doesn't need five hearts, in fact he doesn;t even need four. Here are opener's rebids to 2♦ taken direclty from the ETM site (see http://www.bridgemat....com/onent.htm)

2H: denies 4Hs, any strength
2S: 5Hs, minimum
2NT: 4Hs, minimum
3C: 5Hs, maximum
3H: 4Hs, maximum

When 2♦ doesn't have hearts, it is a game try, so not the maximum rebids showing hearts are above 2NT, but no problem. If opener bids 2♥ (not four hearts), responder can then bid 2♠ as a range check, again landing in 2NT if partner is minimum or in 3♣ otherwise if opener is maximum.

[Chamaco]

Quote

What are good basic guidlines for opening a major as opposed to NT (I have not specified whatthe NT range is, as that may have a bearing on your answers)

Usually, some guidelines that discriminate hands suit-oriented vs NT-oriented are:

- type of values:
many Aces and Kings usually are suit oriented; Q, J and good intermediates (T,9,8, etc) suggest good play in NT.
The reason is easy: in suit contract, innmany cases the J or 9 or 8 never takes tricks because such round is ruffed; in NT, you can develop slow tricks.

- good intermediates (see point above)

- tenaces:
usually many tenaces aregood for NT

- more than one suit unstopped:
I know many disagree (but many others also agree ), but one of the factors that might oush towards conisdering a hand as suit oriented is if you have 2+ suits unstopped (1 suit unstopped is ok for NT).

- rebid problems
If you decide to open 1 of a suit you must have in mind a rebid.
This does not have a universal solution, as it depends from your system and agreements.

---------------------------

As a whole, I think it's wise not to be "slave of the system": e.g. I think it's better to leave room for evaluation and not be forced to always bid 1NT or alway 1M with 5332.
Judgment is important !

[Gerben42]

2N - 3♣ - 3♥ - ?
3♠: Asks 5-card minor (3NT none, then 4♣ asks 4-card minor)
3NT: To play
4m: Natural slam try with 4-card major on the side

2N - 3♣ - 3NT - ?
4♦ Transfer
4♣ Slam try for ♥
4♠ Kickback for ♥
4NT Quantitative

[Al_U_Card]

Chamaco, on Sep 2 2005, 08:14 AM, said:

Quote

What are good basic guidlines for opening a major as opposed to NT (I have not specified whatthe NT range is, as that may have a bearing on your answers)

Usually, some guidelines that discriminate hands suit-oriented vs NT-oriented are:

- type of values:
many Aces and Kings usually are suit oriented; Q, J and good intermediates (T,9,8, etc) suggest good play in NT.
The reason is easy: in suit contract, innmany cases the J or 9 or 8 never takes tricks because such round is ruffed; in NT, you can develop slow tricks.

- good intermediates (see point above)

- tenaces:
usually many tenaces aregood for NT

- more than one suit unstopped:
I know many disagree (but many others also agree ), but one of the factors that might oush towards conisdering a hand as suit oriented is if you have 2+ suits unstopped (1 suit unstopped is ok for NT).

- rebid problems
If you decide to open 1 of a suit you must have in mind a rebid.
This does not have a universal solution, as it depends from your system and agreements.

---------------------------

As a whole, I think it's wise not to be "slave of the system": e.g. I think it's better to leave room for evaluation and not be forced to always bid 1NT or alway 1M with 5332.
Judgment is important !

Hear, Hear. Better words were rarely spoke. Judgement is primary and since most good players have excellent systems for both 1NT and 1 of a major responses, the big gain comes from judicious choice.

[Al_U_Card]

One exception was 10-12 NT range. Opening 1 of a major was almost always superior with any 5-3-3-2 hand.

[Fluffy]

I never open 1NT unless the 5cM is a 4cM (ie 10xxxx), I a quite happy rebidding a 3 card suit after partner's 1NT. This has worked very well for me. While the only time I opened 1NT with 5c majors was a dreadful experience finishing last on a european junior championship, althou I suspect this had little to do with that.

[mikeh]

I never play puppet, because it is unplayable when responder is 5=4 in the majors, and cumbersome when 4=5 (you have to transfer to ♥ and then bid 3♠: a sequence I like for other purposes.

But there is a fix:

3♣ is stayman: the responses:

3♦ no 4 card Major, no 5 card ♥ suit, may hold 5 ♠

Responder usually bids 3♦ to ask, over which opener bids 3♠ (with 5) or 3N

Responder can also bid 3♠, smolen with longer ♥, or 3N smolen with longer ♠

3♥ shows 4 ♥, may have 4♠. Responder bids 3♠ as a puppet to 3N without ♠, or 3N with ♠ and no slam interest, or 4N with ♠ and invitational values

3♠ shows 4♠, denies 4♥

3N shows 5♥

This preserves smolen, which is a great gadget, while allowing you to find all 5-3 fits.

[Elianna]

mikeh, on Sep 2 2005, 07:42 AM, said:

Responder usually bids 3♦ to ask, over which opener bids 3♠ (with 5) or 3N

Hmm, I hope that you mean that responder bids 3♥ to ask, or else there's a problem here.