[Al_U_Card]

The hand I hate the most , playing 2/1, is the 5C 4D with 11-16 hcp. Whichever minor I choose to open, for whatever reason, tends to work out poorly.

Back to the F Word. I do play Fl...... and thought about using 2H to show that hand and keeping 2D for the minor suit Fl...... hand mentioned above.

Pre-empts being what they are these days the frequency of the 5C4D hand is, I believe, slightly more common than hands with 6 D etc......

Does anyone have ways of dealing with the 5C 4D hand in sayc or 2/1 methods?

[awm]

Well, Elianna and I almost always open 1♣ on this hand. It works out very well for us, in part because our style includes:

(1) Normally bid up the line in response to 1m; no walsh style.
(2) Frequently rebid 1NT on stiff with "awkward" hands (i.e. 3145 after 1♣-1♥).
(3) Frequently raise partner's major on three (i.e. 3145 after 1♣-1♠).

Because of (2) and (3), we don't typically rebid 2M on five card suits unless very good texture, which avoids the 5-1 fit on these hands. Yes we sometimes miss a 5-2 major fit when the five card suit is mediocre, but this only sometimes plays better than 1NT (we probably win as many as we lose).

[kfgauss]

awm, on Aug 30 2005, 04:16 PM, said:

(2) Frequently rebid 1NT on stiff with "awkward" hands (i.e. 3145 after 1♣-1♥).

I haven't played this style seriously. I just recently played with a partner who likes rebidding 1N on 1444's too (as opposed to playing that lovely 4-2 diamond fit).

Does anyone have recommended response schemes here -- e.g. ways one should modify 2-way checkback to account for these possibilities (I haven't thought about it much, so any observations would be useful)?

----------

As for the original post, I tend to open 1C on these hands and rebid 2C when partner bids my stiff with most partners (the ones with whom I don't rebid 1N with 1444). I also basically always raise if pard bids my 3 card suit (there's a discussion of this going on in this same forum right now). If I have 10xxxx or something, I might open 1D, but the club suit would have to be pretty bad.

Andy

[pclayton]

This one's been touched on a few times here.

Open these 1♣. The rebids in general (with minimums):

1=3=4=5 - Raise 1♥ to 2♥, rebid 1N over 1♠.
3=1=4=5 - Raise 1♠ to 2♠, rebid 1♠ (good spades or extras) or 1N over 1♥.
2=2=4=5 - Usually rebid 1N

With dynamite diamonds and ratty clubs, its OK to open 1♦. With really good clubs, you can rebid them instead of the off-shape 1N rebid.

With the 15-17 range, you can make a reverse with a pure hand or open 1N. Frankly, I think its this range that is the hardest to deal with.

[EricK]

If you are prepared to give up a strong 2♣ you can play Mega-Flannery

2♣ = 4♦5♣
2♦ = 4♥5♦
2♥ = 4♠5♥

If you do, let me know how it works out!

Eric

[Al_U_Card]

Jlall, on Aug 30 2005, 01:28 PM, said:

yikes, dropped the F bomb 3 times.

Are you sure you're old enuf to attend this forum?...lol

[Al_U_Card]

pclayton, on Aug 30 2005, 01:12 PM, said:

This one's been touched on a few times here.

With the 15-17 range, you can make a reverse with a pure hand or open 1N. Frankly, I think its this range that is the hardest to deal with.

Indeed it has. I guess the thread may have almost as much to do with the fact that shapely hands get well described by rebids while balanced hands leave a lot to the imagination (or fabrication as in some of the examples).....

[Fluffy]

Since 1♦-1♠-2♣ can be a 4-4 minor hand when 1444 it is sensible to open 1♦ and rebid 2♣ with 45, I haven't seen much troubles using this, never yet played in the 4-2.

Of course if the ♣ suit is good enough, you can open 1♣ and rebid it without much trouble. Use your criterium.

[Free]

Fluffy, on Aug 30 2005, 11:01 PM, said:

Since 1♦-1♠-2♣ can be a 4-4 minor hand when 1444 it is sensible to open 1♦ and rebid 2♣ with 45, I haven't seen much troubles using this, never yet played in the 4-2.

Of course if the ♣ suit is good enough, you can open 1♣ and rebid it without much trouble. Use your criterium.

completely agree

[flytoox]

Al_U_Card, on Aug 30 2005, 03:58 PM, said:

The hand I hate the most , playing 2/1, is the 5C 4D with 11-16 hcp. Whichever minor I choose to open, for whatever reason, tends to work out poorly.

Back to the F Word. I do play Fl...... and thought about using 2H to show that hand and keeping 2D for the minor suit Fl...... hand mentioned above.

Pre-empts being what they are these days the frequency of the 5C4D hand is, I believe, slightly more common than hands with 6 D etc......

Does anyone have ways of dealing with the 5C 4D hand in sayc or 2/1 methods?

2D showing 4d5c is not playable. You will often end up with 3C, unnecessary one level hgher than it should be.

[Chamaco]

If you play a Standard-ish 5 card major system with short club opening (e.g. 1C = either clubs unbalanced or weak NT or 18-19/20), then you can handle the 4♦5♣ via the 1♦/1NT rebid sequences.
In fact, 1♦ followed by 1NT cannot be semibalanced (weak NT with 5332 in ♦ is opened 1♣), so it is artificial for sme specific hand types.
IMO it is better to use it as a catchall for all hands that do not want to rebid naturally 2♣ o 2♦: :

Sequence 1

1♦:1♥:1NT
In this case, it usually shows canapé in the minors.

Sequence 2

1♦:1♠:1NT

In this case, the 1NT can still be used as a catchall: this time it would include not only canapé in the minors, *but also a hand with 4 hearts that cannot reverse*.

In both sequences the use of XYZ allows to checkback for the shape (e.g. find out hearts in sequence 2).

Incidentally, this scheme works also for Precision 1♦ openers, in the versions where it promises 4+diamonds unbalanced (e.g. the weak NT hand is opened 1NT).

[Gerben42]

Very sensible stuff Chamaco, but playing standard open 1♦ unless you are prepared to rebid your ♣.

---

is NOT a 1♣ opening bid unless you are a fan of 5-1 fits (or actually your partner should be a fan of the 5-1 fits since he'll play it)

[helene_t]

flytoox, on Aug 31 2005, 06:29 AM, said:

2D showing 4d5c is not playable. You will often end up with 3C, unnecessary one level hgher than it should be.

Then maybe you could change it to 5d4c. Then 1♦ followed by 2♣ is canapé.

[MickyB]

Gerben, if you open 1♦ on that you will land up in a fair few 4-2 diamond fits. No idea which is more likely to land you in a misfit, instinctively I prefer opening 1♣ and rebidding 2♣ unless pard will rarely rebid a 5 card spade suit over a 1NT rebid by me.

Chamaco - I thought about something like that a while back. I think it is better for 1♦:1♥, 2♣ to explicitly promise longer diamonds and 1♦:1♥, 1N to show equal or longer clubs, now with xx55 opposite xx23 you can play in 2♣ instead of a false preference to 2♦.

I'm also not sure about 1♦:1♠, 1N, not only does it make it difficult to reach the best part-score but constructive bidding afterwards could be difficult. Not quite sure what the best solution is...maybe 1N shows hearts, fairly unlimited, 2♣ shows both minors either way around, below reverse strength, and 2♥ shows both minors, reversing strength?

[Chamaco]

MickyB, on Aug 31 2005, 12:16 PM, said:

I'm also not sure about 1♦:1♠, 1N, not only does it make it difficult to reach the best part-score but constructive bidding afterwards could be difficult. Not quite sure what the best solution is...maybe 1N shows hearts, fairly unlimited, 2♣ shows both minors either way around, below reverse strength, and 2♥ shows both minors, reversing strength?

It depends what the rest of your structure is.
For me, after 1♦:1♠, 1N, I play xyz this way

....- 2♣ = Puppet to 2♦, either signoff in ♦ or any invitational hand if followed by a rebid
....- 2♦ = generic GF
....- 2♥ =5♠, 4+♥, weak
....- 2♠ = natural, weak
....- 2[NT] = slammish 2 suiter, spades + clubs
....- 3♣ = signoff in clubs
....- 3♦ = slammish 2 suiter, spades + diamonds
....- 3♥ =slammish 2 suiter, spades + hearts
....- 3♠ = slammish 1 suiter

This way you cannot sign off in clubs at the 2 level, but most of the other distributions weak and strong are protected.
Of course, there is always a tradeoff.

There are other, more refined version of xyz (e.g. xfer checkback, etc etc), that should be able to handle the same sequences after the catchall 1D/1NT rebid.

[Al_U_Card]

flytoox, on Aug 30 2005, 11:29 PM, said:

2D showing 4d5c is not playable. You will often end up with 3C, unnecessary one level hgher than it should be.

Lets just say that, as always, trade-offs exist. Chamaco's xyz method, which while intricate and accurate STILL does not allow a signoff in 2C...btw even tho I play MP at f2f and IMPS online, being allowed to play in 2C is so rare that the preemptive nature of a 2D bid for this type of hand (especially when pard declares the 3C contract) that it will spare you some of the BOP doubles of 3C that you might get on a contested part-score auction.
I did play this 2D method for some time at matchpoints with success.