[coyot]

I'm not against conventions, mind you.

I play SA based system with 2♦ multi and 2M destructive openers.
I am only trying to say that you should NOT introduce unnatural gadgets into your system BECAUSE the system sometimes brings a disaster, at the cost of natural bidding.

I recall from the beginning of this thread the suggestion that 1♦ and 1NT responses over 1♣ in SAYC would be completely changed to talk about points. This attacks the system philosophy, changes it's natural "basis". When I say "keep it simple and natural", I don't care what your 2♦ opener promises, but I want 1♣-1♦ to show diamonds and I want 1♣-1NT to show a limited balanced hand with no interest in majors. There might be slight variations about what those bids exactly promise/deny, but basically the bidding will be still natural.

IMHO it is not a good idea to merge "strong club and negative diamond" structure into a "natural" (does NOT equal convetion-less) system, that's the whole point of my post.

Having 2♦ as 18-19 balanced will mean that 2NT rebids are 20-21? What does it solve? You'll open 1♣ with 20-21 balanced against nothing and will MAYBE end one trick better off than with 18-19. If your LHO has trapping pass in clubs and your RHO sees it and passes wisely, you're still toasted. True, 20-21 is less likely than 18-19, but, then, the 2♦ may get you higher than where you belong if partner is broke, so I am not sure if it helps more often than it hurts .

[Chamaco]

coyot, on Aug 30 2005, 10:15 AM, said:

Having 2♦ as 18-19 balanced will mean that 2NT rebids are 20-21?

I assumed 2NT = "natural" 20-21(22) balanced

EDIT:
sorry, I misread, I meant 2NT openers, not the rebids.
For possible meanings of 2NT rebids see NickToll's post below.

[NickToll]

coyot, on Aug 30 2005, 05:15 AM, said:

... Having 2♦ as 18-19 balanced will mean that 2NT rebids are 20-21? What does it solve? ...

Having 2♦ as 18-19 or 18-20 balanced is not intended to raise the strength of a 2NT rebid: its purpose is to exclude strong balanced hands from 1-bids (open 2NT with 20-22 or 21-23).

Now your 2NT rebids are free for any use you like: a strong raise of responder's suit, a strong 1-suiter with stoppers, a strong 6-4 two-suiter, everything goes as long as it suits your partnership's preference. Much of the same in competitive sequences: never having 18+ balanced, opener will be able to rebid 2NT over RHO's overcall as Good-Bad or anything else the partnership agrees upon...

[mike777]

coyot, on Aug 30 2005, 05:15 AM, said:

I'm not against conventions, mind you.

I play SA based system with 2♦ multi and 2M destructive openers.
I am only trying to say that you should NOT introduce unnatural gadgets into your system BECAUSE the system sometimes brings a disaster, at the cost of natural bidding.

I recall from the beginning of this thread the suggestion that 1♦ and 1NT responses over 1♣ in SAYC would be completely changed to talk about points. This attacks the system philosophy, changes it's natural "basis". When I say "keep it simple and natural", I don't care what your 2♦ opener promises, but I want 1♣-1♦ to show diamonds and I want 1♣-1NT to show a limited balanced hand with no interest in majors. There might be slight variations about what those bids exactly promise/deny, but basically the bidding will be still natural.

IMHO it is not a good idea to merge "strong club and negative diamond" structure into a "natural" (does NOT equal convetion-less) system, that's the whole point of my post.

Having 2♦ as 18-19 balanced will mean that 2NT rebids are 20-21? What does it solve? You'll open 1♣ with 20-21 balanced against nothing and will MAYBE end one trick better off than with 18-19. If your LHO has trapping pass in clubs and your RHO sees it and passes wisely, you're still toasted. True, 20-21 is less likely than 18-19, but, then, the 2♦ may get you higher than where you belong if partner is broke, so I am not sure if it helps more often than it hurts .

NO NO NO

2nt rebids are exactly 17 hcp, very precise.
1nt=14-16 off shape ok
2nt=20-21

Yes, 2D can be complicated
Yes, you can play complicated Baron over your 2nt rebid
Yes playing offshape 1nt and mexican 2d can be complicated.
Yes, 1c=1d shows D, walsh style
Yes 1c=1nt shows 8-11 natural.
The gain is it makes the rest of your non 1nt and 2d auctions more constructive.
Yes, there are costs.

[coyot]

I see no benefit in having 1x-1y-2NT rebid exactly 17HCP. It goes against the rules of using bidding space for NT ranges reasonably. If I were to narrow any NT range to one point, it certainly would NOT be as low as 17, it would be some straight NT opener...

I'm quite happy with 15-17NT, 12-14 NT with rebid (because this gives most room to explore game possibilities). I can still open light if the hands are good (=shapely, not balanced ).

But we're getting far from the original topic, which was 18-19 balanced opened 1c and passed out - and I will again say that this is perfectly OK with me - and I will not sacrifice messing natural 1NT and 1♦ bids to prevent an occasional disaster :-).

[awm]

I'm not sure mexican 2♦ really helps here. The tradeoffs involved are:

- You lose 2♦ as a preempt, or multi, or however you would otherwise use it.
- You will be forced to play 2NT on some hands with 18-19 balanced opposite nothing.
- You won't have to play 1m on 18-19 balanced opposite nothing.
- You gain the use of opener's 2NT rebid after 1m-blah, perhaps to show a strong major raise.
- You won't have to deal with the 18-19 hand in competitive auctions after 1m.

I don't think the people playing mexican 2♦ are playing it to avoid 1m-all pass. There's no particular reason to think that 2NT will be a great contract on 18 opposite 2; in fact it often goes down on 21 opposite 2. It's more likely that you will happen across a 4-3 or 4-4 fit in 1m and make it, than make 2NT. Obviously 1NT might be the best spot, but mexican won't get you there either.

Probably the main reasons people play mexican are the last two. You can use opener's 2NT in constructive auctions to show an awkward hand, perhaps dealing strong major raises, or the "bridge world problem" hands where opener has a strong minor and three-card support for partner. It's also a pain when you hear something like 1m-2♠-pass-pass and have to figure out how to balance with 18-19 balanced and length in spades. Passing could easily be wrong if partner has a six-seven point hand without four hearts (you could make 3NT) but bidding exposes you to massive penalties when partner has a bust (now you're not only playing 2NT, as you would be after mexican 2♦, but opponents are more likely to be able to double it).

The main reason I don't play mexican 2♦ (well besides that I like playing strong club systems) is the first reason -- I like having my preempts available.

[Chamaco]

Quote

- You lose 2♦ as a preempt, or multi, or however you would otherwise use it.

I can understand this reason.

Quote

- You will be forced to play 2NT on some hands with 18-19 balanced opposite nothing.

This statement is not entirely true.
In some cases you find a decent 44 or 43 fit at the 2 level, and score better than 1m.

However, even when we do end up in 2NT, it does not seem such a disaster: think of it, most people do not mind bidding 2NT with less than 18, when opps open a weak 2 and LHO is sitting on the left with an unpassed hand.
If one is ready to bid 2NT when they open a weak 2, it is as well possible to reconcile with the Mexican 2D.

You can use the same runout mechanism (e.g. Wolff signoff etc etc) if pard is broke, if you have any.

Quote

- You gain the use of opener's 2NT rebid after 1m-blah, perhaps to show a strong major raise.
- You won't have to deal with the 18-19 hand in competitive auctions after 1m.

Right, I agree, these two are the great advantages.

[mike777]

At the top levels it seems the concern to play in 18-19 2nt across from nothing is not an issue, even with 4333 shape.

Board 110 Istanbul Open Finals

AT7
K85
AKJ5
K96

Versace opened 2D, Laurie relayed 2s and they played 2nt.
For Netherlands, Schollaardt opened 1C, polish, Duboin overcalled 2h, Drijver, passed and Schollaardt rebid a free 2nt .