[Walddk]

3♠ is an excellent start to the cold 6♣ opposite

AQx
A
xxx
Axxxxx

Good partners always have that hand!

Roland

[Al_U_Card]

It was clear to me that either black game was possible but I would have accepted a pass (I don't consider the 3S forcing at all) as I can see pard with a minimum hand only making 9 tricks (and not in NT).

[Walddk]

Al_U_Card, on Aug 29 2005, 10:11 PM, said:

It was clear to me that either black game was possible but I would have accepted a pass (I don't consider the 3S forcing at all) as I can see pard with a minimum hand only making 9 tricks (and not in NT).

Then perhaps you should change your agreement. How can a passed hand wish to play in a (new) 5-card suit at the 3-level after a 2♣ overcall by partner? Remember that West already denied 6 spades when he passed initially.

May I suggest that you play this as (natural) forcing with a fit to overcaller's suit. In other words: if partner doesn't like spades (at least three cards), he must bid either 4♣ or 5♣, depending on how strong his overcall was and how well he likes his hand after the 3♠ bid.

Roland

[Al_U_Card]

For sure the expectation of a correction to 4C (not forward going). If he has a 13 count with qxx of S, he could pass, don't you think?

[Walddk]

Al_U_Card, on Aug 29 2005, 10:30 PM, said:

For sure the expectation of a correction to 4C (not forward going). If he has a 13 count with qxx of S, he could pass, don't you think?

No, I do not. 3♠ is logically forcing.

Roland

[mikeh]

Al_U_Card, on Aug 29 2005, 03:11 PM, said:

It was clear to me that either black game was possible but I would have accepted a pass (I don't consider the 3S forcing at all) as I can see pard with a minimum hand only making 9 tricks (and not in NT).

Let's think about the effect of the 3♠ bid should overcaller not fit ♠.

Clearly he is not expected to pass. Clearly the 3♠ bidder has ♣ support, sufficient to allow him to introduce ♠, while expecting partner to pull to 4♣ on a misfit.

So, 3♠ forces to a ten trick contract opposite poorly fitting cards, at least in the ♠ suit.

Ask yourself this: do we upgrade or downgrade hands with double fits?

We upgrade.

If partner, by 3♠, announces playing strength sufficient for the 4-level with only a single fit, how can we stop at the 3-level with a double fit??? It makes no sense to play 3♠ as forcing opposite a non-fitting overcall and non-forcing opposite a double-fit.

Anyone who says that the 3♠ bidder is aiming for a 9 trick partscore should partner fit his suit should take up archery, where hitting very tiny targets with precision is rewarded far more than it is at bridge

[Al_U_Card]

Then we can never play in the S partial? (at least on this auction unless I make an insufficient bid ;-)

[Al_U_Card]

By that I mean that with a S fit and a minimum, pard HAS to bid 4C?

[Al_U_Card]

I am not being obstinate, just looking for an answer, as I will then adjust my bids to a minimum standard for the change of suit overcall with a fit for his overcall.

[Walddk]

Al_U_Card, on Aug 29 2005, 10:34 PM, said:

Then we can never play in the S partial? (at least on this auction unless I make an insufficient bid ;-)

Now we agree ... on your conclusion that is! MikeH makes a couple of very good points, and I am sure that will convince you.

Roland

[Al_U_Card]

Jlall, on Aug 25 2005, 11:33 AM, said:

if he had a fit...he'd bid game...if he had a lot of extras he'd bid 5C. If he had a stopper he may try 3N. If he had none of the above he'd pass or bid 4C

Based on Justin's answer, he would bid the S game with a 3 card fit and minimum values so My hand was a minimum type for the 3S call?

[han]

reisig, on Aug 29 2005, 08:23 AM, said:

You don't need my agreement about 3♠ showing a fit...but I might add that 3♠ is forcing.

I don't agree with this at all, even though I would pass it only very rarely. It shows a good passed hand with 5 spades and good club support, but since I open light with distributional hand, I don't have a huge hand. If partner has taken a liberty with 2C or further bidding has made his hand look worse, he can certainly pass 3S.

[Walddk]

Hannie, on Aug 29 2005, 11:10 PM, said:

If partner has taken a liberty with 2C or further bidding has made his hand look worse, he can certainly pass 3S.

Sure, he can pass any forcing bid if he feels like it (how can I stop him?), but he won't get many chances with me as his partner.

Roland

[jdeegan]

Walddk, on Aug 29 2005, 08:57 AM, said:

3♠ is an excellent start to the cold 6♣ opposite

AQx
A
xxx
Axxxxx

Good partners always have that hand!

Roland

I am not optimistic about partner holding the magic hand. Consider that for partner to have a stiff heart, the opponents must have overlooked a nine card heart fit in favor of diamonds. If partner has two diamonds, the opponents have ten (certainly possible, but slightly off percentage). Partner has to have five clubs, and with an AJ10 suit, he is more likely than usual to have six. To summarize:

♥ - two or three
♦ - three, plus or minus
♣ - five or six

♠ - ???? - chances of having three (or more) not encouraging

I agree that 3♠ is de facto forcing, unless overcaller has misbid earlier, but on this auction shouldn't overcaller be interested in playing the 10 trick spade game with honor doubleton? By bidding 3♠, you could easily end up in 4♠ on the existing hand - possibly makable, but lower percentage than 5♣.

[the hog]

"I agree that 3♠ is de facto forcing, unless overcaller has misbid earlier, but on this auction shouldn't overcaller be interested in playing the 10 trick spade game with honor doubleton? By bidding 3♠, you could easily end up in 4♠ on the existing hand - possibly makable, but lower percentage than 5♣. "

You know for a fact that you only have a 5-2 fit in S. If partner had 6S he would have opened with a weak 2, so I don't think your argument is valid.

[pclayton]

I have no idea how you think pard has +/- 3 diamonds on this auction. 0 to 3 seems more like it.

Also, if pard passes 3S with a dead minimum and 3 pieces, its probably the right call. After all, pd made the 'semi-preemptive' 2C overcall of 1D. Axx, xx, xx, AJTxxx would play nicely in exactly 3S.

I'm sure one of us will take the 'par' push to 4S when the vul is right. For some reason, finding par is easier once one of us makes a fit bid.

[el doud]

Based on the fact that NS didn't mention ♥, my assumption is that my Pd is short in ♠ better than in ♥. I would therefore bid 4♦ instead of 3♠, which seems a more valuable information to him. Then pass on 5♣ of course, or bid 4♠ encouraging on 4♥, or 5♣ "no ♥ control" on 4♠ ...

[P_Marlowe]

4C.

Dont know, where we are going, but I dont need
to guess.

Marlowe

[HeartA]

Jlall, on Aug 25 2005, 11:14 AM, said:

3S for me as well.

me 3.