[Chamaco]

Hi all !
I'd like advices on the following issues.

Any advice and suggestion for improvenments (except "give up control responses"! ) will be GREATLY appreciated !!

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I am trying to find out a decently nice and efficient scheme after the 1NT and 2C control responses to strong club (16+) opening:

Some details:

- 1C:1NT shows exactly 4 controls and denies a balanced hand or 4441, so it guarantees a 5 bagger
- 1C:2C shows 5 or more controls and denies a balanced hand or 4441, so it guarantees a 5 bagger. It is forcing to 4NT or 5 of a suit

PLEASE LET'S SKIP IN THIS THREAD THE ISSUE "SHAPE-FIRST" VS "CONTROLS- FIRST", thanks

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After, say, 1C:2C, I would love to use a 2D relay to find out responder's shape (similar problems arise in the 1C:1NT:2C relay sequence, and if u've got suggestions, please telle them!!! ).
A preliminary, elementary version we started to play was to use 2D as a 5c major ask, with responses:

Version 1


2H = hearts (might have spades)
2S = 5+ spades , no 5 hearts
2NT = no 5cM
3m = 5+ in the minor suit bid and a side 4cM
3M = 55 or better in the minors, with shortness in the suit bid

This scheme was relatively simple, but does not deal well with 55 or better 2-suiters. Also, it becomes hard to show minors single suiters, anmd discriminate hands with a strong minor suit from those where the minor suit is long but of modest quality

I thought of something different (did not try yet), something like
1C:2C:2D

Version 2

- 2H = no 5 card major, no 2 suiter; 2S asks
..... - 2NT = I have a 4cM
..... - 3m = natural suit, no 4cM
..... - 3H = single suiter, selfsufficient in CLUBS
..... - 3S = single suiter, selfsufficient in DIAMONDS
..... - 3NT = ??? (5422 in minors ??)

- 2S = undisclosed 5 card major (and longer minor), 2NT asks

- 2NT = 2 suiter same Color

- 3C = 2 suiter same RANK

- 3D = 2 suiter same SHAPE

- 3H/S = natural single suiter, selfsufficient

- 3NT = ??

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Version 3 would be the simpler:
opener just bid naturally, and when he is balanced (the usual hands that would relay), he just bids 2NT and then it's system-on as on 2NT openings.

[PMetsch]

I think the room to describe all possible hand types is very limited, but you may go for a symmetric structure. The sequences won't come up a lot so the simpler the better. I have only thought about a short while so the structure below can certainly be improved.

2h	hearts + other (maybe canape c/d)      
	2nt	(R)    	
  3c/d	nat    	
  	3h	(R)  	
    3s	canape  
    	3nt	(R)	
      4c	54
      4d	64
    3nt  55  
    4c	54  
    4d	64  
  3h	6h    
  	3s	(R)  	
    3nt  bal  
    4x	spl  	
  3s	5h + 4s    
  	3nt	(R)  	
    4c	54  
    4d	64  
  3nt  5h + 5s (better/longer hearts)    
2s	spades + other (maybe canape c/d)      
  3c/d	nat    	
  	3h	(R)  	
    3s	canape  
    	3nt	(R)	
      4c	54
      4d	64
    3nt  55  
    4c	54  
    4d	64  
  3h	6s    
  	3s	(R)  	
    3nt  bal  
    4x	spl  	
  3s	5s + 4h    
  	3nt	(R)  	
    4c	54  
    4d	64  
  3nt  5h + 5s (better/longer spades)    
2nt	clubs (may have diamonds)      
	3c	(R)    	
  3d	5c + 5d    
  3h	6c      
  	3s	(R)  	
    3nt  bal  
    4x	spl  	
  3s	5c + 4d    
  3NT	6c + 4d    
3c	diamonds (may have clubs)      
	3d	(R)    	
  3h	6d    
  	3s	(R)  	
    3nt  bal  
    4x	spl  	
  3s	5d + 4c    
  3NT	6d + 4c    
3d/h/s/nt	5332      

[Chamaco]

PMetsch, on Aug 12 2005, 05:15 PM, said:

I think the room to describe all possible hand types is very limited, but you may go for a symmetric structure. The sequences won't come up a lot so the simpler the better. I have only thought about a short while so the structure below can certainly be improved.

Thanks a lot for the contribution, and for the effoirt you put into it, I'll certainly try to steal ideas from it.

At first sight, though, I have a question:
the few relay-systems I have examined (superficially) so far, have the following mechanism to stop the relay, and terminate the auction:

1) 3NT is NEVER a relay
2) 4D is end-signal, puppet to 4H then pass/correct

In the scheme you posted, I have seen that in some sequences

a. 3NT is used as relay
b. the 4D step is used to resolve 64 shape, making it impossible to use 4D = end signal.

I think I might try to find a way to improve these details, what do you think ?

[PMetsch]

Quote

a. 3NT is used as relay

That might be a problem. I wanted to have 4d as the last relay step, so opener can sign off in any game, and responder can then continue with extra queens. Maybe you should use 4c as a further relay or break relay chain earlier. I have not think about it a lot, also because 2c is forcing till 4NT. It is nice though to play the same structure over 1NT and 2club response.

Maybe this is better:

4c (r)
  4d = 64
     4h = (r)
        4s = high shortage
        4n = low shortage
   4h = 5422
   4s = 54 high shortage
   4n = 54 low shortage

Now responder may have a couple of queens so 4nt is not a good idea. Also you might end up in 5h. I don't know.

Quote

b. end signal

I think you don't need an end signal, unless you need a specific agreement about 4h etcetera (RKC Blackwood, spiral scan for example). In your case you know already the number of controls, so I think you are more or less interested in the number of queens. If you have a quantitative 4NT available it should be OK.

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To add more shapes to the structure also 7-4 are possible, for example:

1c - 1n;
2c - 2h; {4+ h}
2n - 4c/d; {7h + 4c/d}

also

1c - 1n;


2c - 2nt; {5+ c}
3c - 4d/h/s; 7c + 4d/h/s


======================

Have you seen notes on Volmac Precision (you can find them on Daniel Neill's site) ? If you have a 5c hearts or spades you respond 1 heart or 1 spade, other responses show controls either bal or 3suiter or minor(s). Maybe this will solve your problem, because the number of shapes is reduced.

[PMetsch]

New ideas.

Say the response structure after 2d relay is

2H : H + other (might be spades, either might be longer)

2S : S + minor (either might be longer)

2NT etc. as above

Then you can relay after 2H with 2S and after 2S with 2NT, with the following responses:

2nt	h + s    
	3c	(R)  	
  3d	5+h + 4s  
  	3h	(R)	
    3s	5h + 4s
    3NT	6h + 4s
  3h	5h + 5s    
  3s	5s + 4h  
  3NT	6s + 4h  
    	
3c	5M + 4+c    
3d  5M + 4+d    
	3h	(R)  	
  3s	5M4m  
  3NT	6M4m  
  4c	5M5m  
    	
3h	6M    
	3s	(R)  	
  3NT	bal  
  4x	SPL  
    	
3s	4M + 5/6c    
3nt	4M + 5/6d    
    	
4x	7M + 4x    

Now youre shape is known at the level of 3nt/4c, unless you have a canape. It is also still quite easy to memorize. In most sequences you have 4m left as a queen ask or end signal.

[Chamaco]

Thanks a lot !

I will check Volmac Precision too.

[PMetsch]

One final change. Maybe you should put the 5332 hands in the single suiter, so

1c - 2c;
2d - 2h/2s/2n/3c;
® - 3h = 5332 or 6 (single suiter);
® - 3n = 5332, 4suit = 6 bal, 4newsuit = spl

Now direct responses of 3d and higher are free to resolve major minor canape hands and solid suits:

3d  5+d + 4h  
	3h	(R)	
  3s	5d + 4h
  3n	6d + 4h
  	
3h	any solid suit  
	3s	(R)	
  	
3s	5d + 4s  
3n	6d + 4s  

The whole structure is then:

2h	hearts + other (maybe canape)      
2s	spades + minor (maybe canape)      
	2s/2n  (R)    	
  2n	h + s    
  	3c	(R)  	
    3d	5+h + 4s  
    	3h	(R)	
      3s	5h + 4s
      3n  6h + 4s
    3h	5h + 5s    
    3s	5s + 4h  
    3n  6s + 4h  
      	
  3c	5M + 4+c    
  3d  5M + 4+d    
  	3h	(R)  	
    3s	5M + 4m  
    3n  6M + 4m  
    4c	5M + 5m  
      	
  3h	6M    
  	3s	(R)  	
    3n  5M bal  
    4x	5M spl  
    4M	6M bal  
      	
  3s	4M + 5c    
  3n  4M + 6c    
  4x	7M + 4x    
      	
2nt	clubs (may have diamonds)      
	3c	(R)    	
  3d	5c + 5d    
  3h	6c      
  	3s	(R)  	
    3n  5c bal  
    4x	6c spl  
    4c	6c bal  
  3s	5c + 4d    
  3n  6c + 4d    
  4x	7c + 4x    
      	
3c	diamonds (may have clubs)      
	3d	(R)    	
  3h	6d    
  	3s	(R)  	
    3n  5d bal  
    4x	6d spl  
    4d	6d bal  
  3s	5d + 4c    
  3n  6d + 4c    
  4x	7d + 4x    
      	
3d  5+d + 4h      
	3h	(R)    	
  3s	5d + 4h    
  3n  6d + 4h    
      	
3h	any solid suit      
	3s	(R)    	
      	
3s	5d + 4s      
3nt	6d + 4s      
	

I think you should add another relay (4m) to ask for short suit and/or queen-ask.

[Chamaco]

PMetsch, on Aug 13 2005, 07:47 AM, said:

One final change. Maybe you should put the 5332 hands in the single suiter

Perhaps I might cisnider treating all 5332 as balanced, and going via the balanced positive responses (which in my case would be 2H/2S/2NT)

[PMetsch]

Bad 5card suits or hands with poor controls can be treated as balanced, but good suits with controls should be bid. I don't know your bidding system but suppose it goes:

1c - 2s; {16+, 11-13 BAL}
2n

It makes sense to play stayman and transfers. If responder shows a 5card major, opener knows it is 5332 and a bad suit or bad hand (lots of queens/jacks). So opener may try 3NT instead of 4M.

Now on the otherside playing

1c - 2c; {16+, 5cntrls}
2d - 2n; {®, clubs}
3c - 3h; {®, singlesuiter}
3s - 3n; {®, 5332}

as a good suit, opener may look for a slam, that is otherwise hard to bid.

[Chamaco]

I have come up with a slightly different scheme for my strong club responses.
If you have constructive improvement (e.g. not "channge your system altogether" ), any suggestion will be valuable !


This scheme, immediately discriminating hands with 5 controls major based and minor based, is intended to simplify the relay by the 1C opener, because otherwise the sopectrum of possible responder hands in the 1C:2C would have been too wide.

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1C:

1D = 0-7 any
1H = unbalanced, 0-2 controls OR 6+ controls
1S = unbal, 3 ctrls
1NT = unbal, 4 ctrls
2C = unbal with at least a 4 card major, exactly 5 ctrls
2D = MULTI = either weak 3-6/7 with a major OR exactly 5 ctrls , unbalanced without 4 card majors
2H/S/NT = 11-13/8-10/14+ bal
3C/D/H/S = various 4441 shapes and ranges

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