[coyot]

How much does a negative double promise? 6? 8?.
How light do the opps open?

With this ugly shape, unless opps' bids leave the possibility of 24-25 HCP on our side, I will be quite happy to underbid 2♠.

What does LOTT say about this? We're likely in 8card fit and opps are likely to have one too, TOPS. So it looks like 16 tricks... If we're lucky when it comes to honor placement, we might score 9 and opps 7. Assuming RHO has some heart values, the unbid suit king is probably dead .

I really don't worry about missing a game here. If we happen to have an agreement that distinguishes strong hands (cuebid), solid 2♠ (some other bid, maybe xx) and preempt (2♠), I will follow the principle that any direct raise in non-forcing and shows the trump suit length only

[kenberg]

This hand may or not be worth more than a 2S bid (not, imo) but if I think it is I would redouble. It seems to me that such a call should be natural. My reasons:


1. I can certainly hold ten or more points, on the given hand I do, and I can hold KQJTxx of either hearts or clubs and wish to bid them naturally.

2. The xx is not needed for rescue. I don't think I have ever seen 1C-1S-x(neg)-all pass. After 1C-1S-x-pass, opener knows his partner has four hearts and some perhaps modest values. Opener may hold four spades but for all opener knows his opponents hold the other nine. And any honors he may have are placed badly. The third hand, if he has spades and hearts, may choose to forego the negative double on the first round and hope to catch the spade bidder, but once he makes the negative double he, in practical terms, gives up on playing 1S doubled. His partner will rarely if ever have a hand that warrants a pass.

As it happens, a similar hand came up when I was playing yesterday, although the suit was hearts. Partner overcalled hearts, third hand made a negative double, I redoubled, opponents ran to a minor, I bid hearts, and partner, holding six hearts and extra values, passed it out. I guess he thought redoubling and then supporting his suit showed weakness.

[P_Marlowe]

2C, at least inv. values, probably
with fit.

Maybe they get scared or partner gets
encouraged to double for penalty, if they
wander at the 3 level.

With kind regards
Marlowe

[han]

2H constructive raise for me too, seems perfect.

[Flame]

If 2h is not avaliable i would choose 2S, i hear the opponents bidding, chances of game are low, so why should i strech up when 90% of the time we dont have a game ?

[jdeegan]

2♠, a tactical 'underbid'. Seriously, what is the problem? Pard is relatively weak in high cards, unless the opponents have psyched. Time to MASTERMIND with this essentially defensive hand. Our likely limit is 2 or 3 spades, they might make the error of blundering into a bad heart contract. 2♠ puts on the PRESSURE at the opportune moment. If partner does have the non-typical overcall with lots of playing strength, 2♠ will leave him well positioned. I am ready to bid a game with the slightest encouragement.

[Winstonm]

Question to those showing stronger raises?

What would you have bid with this hand over P-1S-P-?

For me this is a very shaky 3-card limit raise. Obviously the Qxx is good as is the Ace of hearts, but the unsupported Kxx is of nebulous value and the shape is awful and the hand lacks in spot cards. I would be leery of making a limit raise with this hand and may well make a simple 2S raise opposite and opening 1S.

If this is anywhere close to accurate, I can't see how having 2 bidding opponents and 1 overcalling partner makes this hand better. Sure I could raise to 2S with a lot less hand, but I'd have compensating shape. I'm not so certain if this hand were posed as a poll that over partner's 1C opening we wouldn't have a goodly number of votes for a 1N response.

IMHO, if I raise to 2S and show what could be a shapely 7/8 count and partner makes a try for game or competes to 3S my hand will not disappoint; but if I make a more aggressive move and we get too high opposite an ordinary 11-13 count then it would have been my fault for misleading partner as to the quality of my hand.

My theory is to bid aggressively when you have aggressive cards - shape and trump length and cards in combination - but to tread lightly with flat hands that will have to rely on HCPs alone. I also believe that I can at times "come alive" with this hand after the simple 2S bid. If LHO passes and partner makes a try with 3C or 3D, I can bid 3H to express a maximum 2S or can jump to game. The point to me is that partner is the one who will need to have the aggressive hand with the shape, the length, and the shortness and my bidding should not require him to hold that hand but to position the partnership to make the best decisions possible as to how high to play.

Although a nifty idea to be able to show a better raise, I'd still want to save that bid for Qxx, AKxx, Jxxx, xx.

Anyway, that's my views for what they are worth.

Winston

[P_Marlowe]

Winstonm, on Aug 24 2005, 12:59 AM, said:

Question to those showing stronger raises?

What would you have bid with this hand over P-1S-P-?

<snip>

Winston

1NT forcing, planning to supress the fit,
i.e. intending to bid 2NT.
The alternative would be constructive
raise.
Which choice I make depends on sun / moon
constelation.

The idea behind 2C is to make some noise,
trying to scare the opponents a bit and /or
encourage partner to make a optional dbl ,
when they bid on over 2S.

With kind regards
Marlowe

[kenberg]

P_Marlowe, on Aug 24 2005, 03:52 AM, said:

The idea behind 2C is to make some noise,
trying to scare the opponents a bit and /or
encourage partner to make a optional dbl ,
when they bid on over 2S.

With kind regards
Marlowe

If the intent is to cause trouble for opponents, clearly 2S is the hands down winner. Suppose opener has four card heart support. Over 2C he can bid 2 or 3 hearts depending on his strength. Over 2S he can bid 3H or no hearts. Or, suppose opener lacks hearts but has long clubs. Over 2C he can bid a strong 3C or he can double, suggesting that they may want to compete to 3C. Over 2S, opener can bid 3C or no clubs. Of course over 2S opener can make sort of an all purpose double, and hope his partner works out what the purpose was this time, but my guess is that 2S will often buy the contract and will often be right.

Further, if you want to make a speculative double when they reach the 3 level, raising spades seems a fine start. For one thing they are more likely to overreach, for the reasons stated above. Say you raise to 2S and they compete iin hearts or clubs at the three level. Now you, not partner, can double and partner, if his overcall was a bit of a joke, can run to spades. I might try this at matchpoints although it would not surprise me if I pay off. At imps I don't double and I don't encourage partner to double.

I have no real quarrel with those who think this is too strong for 2S, except that it still seems to me that redbl is then the call unless it would be a snapdragon. But if the intent is mostly to thwart the opponent's auction, then 2S the way to do it.

Ken

[P_Marlowe]

kenberg, on Aug 24 2005, 08:01 AM, said:

P_Marlowe, on Aug 24 2005, 03:52 AM, said:

The idea behind 2C is to make some noise,
trying to scare the opponents a bit and /or
encourage partner to make a optional dbl  ,
when they bid on over 2S.

With kind regards
Marlowe

<snip>

Further, if you want to make a speculative double when they reach the 3 level, raising spades seems a fine start.

<snip>

Now you, not partner, can double and partner, if his overcall was a bit of a joke, can run to spades.
I might try this at matchpoints although it would not surprise me if I pay off. At imps I don't double and I don't encourage partner to double.

<snip>
Ken

Hi,

I dont want to make a "joke" double, I want
to punish them, if they cross the line, ... at MP
or IMP's, doubled under tricks earn money.

Partner will double, if his overcall was not a joke,
which is better, because, if I double 3C and he
made a joke overcall, we will play 3S, which may
be to high, ... and maybe opponents know how to
use the axe as well.

But it is a matter of experience, I will march on,
... maybe I will discover that it does not work,
in this case I will change.

With kind regards
Marlowe

[Winstonm]

P_Marlowe, on Aug 24 2005, 08:19 AM, said:

kenberg, on Aug 24 2005, 08:01 AM, said:

P_Marlowe, on Aug 24 2005, 03:52 AM, said:

The idea behind 2C is to make some noise,
trying to scare the opponents a bit and /or
encourage partner to make a optional dbl  ,
when they bid on over 2S.

With kind regards
Marlowe

<snip>

Further, if you want to make a speculative double when they reach the 3 level, raising spades seems a fine start.

<snip>

Now you, not partner, can double and partner, if his overcall was a bit of a joke, can run to spades.
I might try this at matchpoints although it would not surprise me if I pay off. At imps I don't double and I don't encourage partner to double.

<snip>
Ken

Hi,

I dont want to make a "joke" double, I want
to punish them, if they cross the line, ... at MP
or IMP's, doubled under tricks earn money.

Partner will double, if his overcall was not a joke,
which is better, because, if I double 3C and he
made a joke overcall, we will play 3S, which may
be to high, ... and maybe opponents know how to
use the axe as well.

But it is a matter of experience, I will march on,
... maybe I will discover that it does not work,
in this case I will change.

With kind regards
Marlowe

Personally I have found that against strong opponents that if they compete to the 3-level they have sound reasons to do so and doubling at this level at imps has to based on an extremeley strong likelihood that the opponents are going set - most likely down 2.

Seems to me that a person's "flavoring" comes out in these types of questions, that their basic thought processes come from either a matchpoint slant or an imp slant. I know I am strongly imp inclined but appreciate the subtelties involved in matchpoint-type thinking and have a lot of respect for anyone who can switch back and forth easiliy and effectively.

When my partner overcalls at imps, I simply am not concerned about the prospects of doubling the opponents at the 3-level. As long as we go plus on the partscore hands, we have lost little. If we are on for +140 then whether we gain either +100 or +200 is of little consequence; but if they are on for +140 and we turn it into +730 for them with a speculative double we have probably just lost the match.

When partner has overcalled and there are two bidding opponents and I have a flat 10-count I'm not seriously considering game but partscore - I want to tell him we have enough to compete without getting him overly excited. If he holds a hand worth a 3-level partscore or even game opposite this 10-count, he will find another bid; if not, then we have taken maximum room from the opponents and I am content to try to defeat their 3-level contract. If the opponents sell out to 2S, this likely is high enough for our side.

Winston

[jdeegan]

Winstonm, on Aug 24 2005, 10:17 AM, said:

When my partner overcalls at imps, I simply am not concerned about the prospects of doubling the opponents at the 3-level.  As long as we go plus on the partscore hands, we have lost little.  If we are on for +140 then whether we gain either +100 or +200 is of little consequence; but if they are on for +140 and we turn it into +730 for them with a speculative double we have probably just lost the match.

Winston

Excellent advice, worth the price of admission. IMO, priorities at IMPs are (1) don't miss good game contracts - 2♠ caters to this, and (2) go plus - I can't imagine doubling 3♥ with this hand - indeed, would you double even 4♥.

RHO's neg dbl almost rules out the situations where partner needs to know if your raise is based on high cards or shape, so 2♠ works for our side and doesn't help the opps.

[Winstonm]

Jlall, on Aug 25 2005, 08:47 AM, said:

you forgot a big one...dont go for numbers

Yes, and from my experience big numbers are the result of some unilateral action, rarely partnership action. The big number is always followed by, "If you held just 1 more heart....."

Sorry. I didn't and I don't want to hear it.

Winston