[sceptic]

Scoring: IMP

---

West North East South

 -     -     -     1♥
 1♠    1NT   2♠    3♠
 Dbl   4♦    Pass  5♦
 Pass  Pass  Pass  

I think the bidding was ok (feel free to disagree) , how do you get to slam???

[hrothgar]

sceptic, on Aug 22 2005, 05:23 AM, said:

Scoring: IMP

---

West North East South

- - - 1♥
1♠ 1NT 2♠ 3♠
Dbl 4♦ Pass 5♦
Pass Pass Pass

I think the bidding was ok (feel free to disagree) , how do you get to slam???

Quick question...

Do you want to get to slam on a Spade lead?

[sceptic]

yes I know it was not a good slam, I was just curious as I thought my p may have a singleton (which raises another question) should I have assumed my p had singleton spade)

[mike777]

Jlall, on Aug 21 2005, 10:09 PM, said:

well lets see...

For starters I would open the south hand 2N. It's certainly worth 20-21.

I would never bid 1N with the north hand. I would probably pass, though X is certainly reasonable. 1N shows about 8-10 and a stopper after an overcall.

Not sure I understand 3S here, I would just bid 3N as I have a stopper and my pard has one.

To answer your question, it seems very difficult to get to 6D. In actuality I would expect almost everyone to be in 3N which obviously can't make, so you did quite well.

Slam is pretty iffy, especially if people are going to be in 3N down.

ditto

[coyot]

Several issues in the bidding:

1) Do we want to play a slam on 27HCP with no shortness? No, thanks

2) Why bid 1NT with no spade stopper? 2♦ non-forcing is much better bid

3) Opener - 2NT. We have tools to find major 5card in this hand.

[P_Marlowe]

sceptic, on Aug 21 2005, 09:39 PM, said:

yes I know it was not a good slam, I was just curious as I thought my p may have a singleton (which raises another question) should I have assumed my p had singleton spade)

Hi,

if you know it's a bad slam, why do you want
to know, how to reach it?

Regarding your auction:
1 NT without a spade stopper is ok, as long as this is your
partnership aggreement, I played it a long time and it worked,
altough I was playing weak NT during this time, which may make
a difference.

3S is pointless, do you want to play game? Yes.
Which is your likely game without a heart fit? 3NT => Bid it.

With the current layout you go down, but thats life.

With kind regards
Marlowe

[Free]

I don't want to be in this slam: you need a ♣ finesse, decent ♦ behaviour and no ♠ lead. Too much can go wrong, so don't even try to find these lucky slams...

[Walddk]

sceptic, on Aug 22 2005, 04:39 AM, said:

yes I know it was not a good slam, I was just curious as I thought my p may have a singleton (which raises another question) should I have assumed my p had singleton spade)

No, you should not assume that partner has a singleton spade. He could even have three spades for all you know. Most people would end up in 3NT and go down. Be happy that you reached 5♦.

Roland

[sceptic]

I appreciate I was in a good spot, I still can't quite get my head around why some of you think

a/. 1NT is a non starter (even without a spade stopper, I had 2 very nice cards and I did not think pass was a good option, nor did I think going to the 2 level was the right thing to do) ( I realise this may have worked out ok on this hand, but I am looking to understand why this is bad in general?

b/. 2 Diamonds is a good bid?

c/. AX is not a good stopper against 3NT where the opps have that suit bid and supported, what do you think the 3 spade bid should have shown (is it forcing), I bid like this on occasions and I know I have made a bad call, but I was not sure of the alternatives and I am not even sure of the correct meaning (help me here if you can please)

d/. why is 19 hcp balanced a good opener in SAYC, I thought the point range was 20-21 or 20 - 22? (or even 2/1 I think)

[mgtusi]

Free, on Aug 22 2005, 03:40 AM, said:

I don't want to be in this slam: you need a ♣ finesse, decent ♦ behaviour and no ♠ lead.    Too much can go wrong, so don't even try to find these lucky slams...

Hi all,

Did I miss something ?
In fact 6 ♦ is a not so awful ; it requires ♦ 2-2 and ♥ not worse than 4-2 OR ♦ 3-1 and (♥ 3-3 OR ♥ 4-2 and queen ♣ onside).

But it's quite difficult to find ;

For the bidding, I propose :

1 ♥* - (1 ♠) - PASS -(2 ♠)
DOUBLE - PASS - 3 ♦ - PASS
3 ♠ - 4 ♦**
5 ♦***

* IMHA, too many aces/kings to open 2NT
** or 5
*** or PASS

[P_Marlowe]

sceptic, on Aug 22 2005, 05:05 AM, said:

I appreciate I was in a good spot, I still can't quite get my head around why some of you think

a/. 1NT is a non starter (even without a spade stopper, I had 2 very nice cards and I did not think pass was a good option, nor did I think going to the 2 level was the right thing to do) ( I realise this may have worked out ok on this hand, but I am looking to understand why this is bad in general?

b/. 2 Diamonds is a good bid?

c/. AX is not a good stopper against 3NT where the opps have that suit bid and supported, what do you think the 3 spade bid should have shown (is it forcing), I bid like this on occasions and I know I have made a bad call, but I was not sure of the alternatives and I am not even sure of the correct meaning (help me here if you can please)

d/. why is 19 hcp balanced a good opener in SAYC, I thought the point range was 20-21 or 20 - 22? (or even 2/1 I think)

1) Most player will expect a spade stopper for 1 NT, but as I have said,
this is a partnership issue
2) 2D is a "good" bid only when you are playing non forcing 2/1, one would
like a better suit, but i have also seen worse
if you play 2D as forcing for one round, you would need to start with a
neg. dbl, planning to bid diamonds on the cheapest level
3) Your most likely game is 3NT, you are bal., you know, the combined values
are +25HCP, you have a stopper, ...
4) People sometimes upgrade, if the values are mostly in aces and Kings
(I never do - but I am not claiming to be an expert)

With kind regards
Marlowe

[Walddk]

sceptic, on Aug 22 2005, 12:05 PM, said:

I appreciate I was in a good spot, I still can't quite get my head around why some of you think

a/.  1NT is a non starter (even without a spade stopper, I had 2 very nice cards and I did not think pass was a good option, nor did I think going to the 2 level was the right thing to do) ( I realise this may have worked out ok on this hand, but I am looking to understand why this is bad in general?

b/. 2 Diamonds is a good bid?

c/. AX is not a good stopper against 3NT where the opps have that suit bid and supported, what do you think the 3 spade bid should have shown (is it forcing), I bid like this on occasions and I know I have made a bad call, but I was not sure of the alternatives and I am not even sure of the correct meaning (help me here if you can please)

d/. why is 19 hcp balanced a good opener in SAYC, I thought the point range was 20-21 or 20 - 22? (or even 2/1 I think)

A. 1NT does not promise stoppers anywhere with no interference, but it does if RHO overcalls and you make a free NT bid. That is basic, but feel free to change it if you like.

B. No, 2♦ is not a good bid if it's forcing. You don't have the values for it. Pass is a good bid, or a negative double if you prefer, then correct 2♣ to 2♦. That is non-forcing since you didn't bid 2♦ first time around.

C. Ax is not ideal but might be good enough opposite Jxx and KQ with overcaller. The auction would have been completely different if responder had passed over 1♠. East supports to 2♠, opener doubles to show extras, and now North could jump to 4♦ to show hand with long diamonds but not enough to bid 2♦ on his first turn. That would most likely get you to 5♦.

D. Some upgrade the hand and open 2NT because of the nice 5-card heart suit. I don't, 1♥ is fine with me.

Roland

[Chamaco]

sceptic, on Aug 22 2005, 10:05 AM, said:

c/. AX is not a good stopper against 3NT where the opps have that suit bid and supported,

Usually when you have a stopper such as Ax(xx) without decent interiors in the dangerous suit , and a side minor fit, the hand plays 2+ tricks better in the contract in the minor (e.g. no need to duck, there is often time to discard or ruff other losers in the suit etc etc).

[Winstonm]

sceptic, on Aug 22 2005, 05:05 AM, said:

I appreciate I was in a good spot, I still can't quite get my head around why some of you think

a/.  1NT is a non starter (even without a spade stopper, I had 2 very nice cards and I did not think pass was a good option, nor did I think going to the 2 level was the right thing to do) ( I realise this may have worked out ok on this hand, but I am looking to understand why this is bad in general?

b/. 2 Diamonds is a good bid?

c/. AX is not a good stopper against 3NT where the opps have that suit bid and supported, what do you think the 3 spade bid should have shown (is it forcing), I bid like this on occasions and I know I have made a bad call, but I was not sure of the alternatives and I am not even sure of the correct meaning (help me here if you can please)

d/. why is 19 hcp balanced a good opener in SAYC, I thought the point range was 20-21 or 20 - 22? (or even 2/1 I think)

1) Problem with bidding NT without at stop is that partner may have a hand that will produce game but is lacking only a spade stop.

1D-1S-1N-2S

Pard could hold something like:

x, Axx, AKQ10xx, Axx

The free 1N should show a stopper in the opponents suit and around 8-9 count so with this hand 3N is a very reasonable bid.

2) You judged well to feel as though your hand had some useful cards - an Ace and a King are certainly better than "just a 7-count". You also judged well that this "excellent 7-count" was not enough to forward a move to the 2-level. The question is not "How do I show this hand?" but "Can I show this hand?" The thing to keep in mind is that bidding is a language with a very limited vocabulary and not every holding can be shown. You must decide what is most important to you to show and scramble as best you can with the rest. As the scoring table favors aggressive game and slam bidding over partscores, it seems better to gear bidding to reap these rewards - that means scrambling a bit more on the weaker hands and partscore hands in order to define better the game-going and slam interest hands. Sometimes pass has to mean not that you are really weak but that your hand does not fit into any bidding category - this hand is one of those types, although there are some who like to use the negative double with 1-suited hands such as yours. I do not personally like this method, but like everything else in bridge bidding, it is a matter of partnership choice.

3) The reason this hand qualifies as a 2N opener is because the hand evaluates to being worth more than its high card content. Aces are extemely undervalued in the Work point count method and the value of shape. length, and interior structure of suits is totally ignored. Simply put: AK1098 is better than AK432 but the Work count values both the same. JLall, AKA The Plano Kid, is just showing his World Class judgement when he states he would open the hand 2N - that's because his bridge judgement and experience has proven to him that this posted hand is undervalued by the Work point count and is actually worth 20-21 due to the Aces and Kings (controls) and the reasonably good heart suit with length.

There are many others on this post who play much better than I - so I hope I'm not sounding like I'm pontificating any great knowledge about bridge or that I am indeed an expert or a world class player because I am not. For the most part, I can hold my own against these other guys and girls; however, I can't beat them on a regular basis - but the challenge of tangling with the best has always been the lure to me of this great game. I enjoy more than they the stimulation of the 4 out of 5 beatings I take and I get to savor much more than they the 1 out of 5 wins I get. So who has the best of it in this deal?

Winston

[POJC]

IMHO north cannot bid 1NT.
If N is unwilling to pass, which i understand since its a very good 7 Hcp hand i would Neg X. This I belive would be Marty Bergens bid, since he is more into neg x showing willingness to bid instead of HCP and a "perfect" shape.

I would tend to Neg X to show values, then bid Ds, showing less than a 10 point hand. It would be more difficult to do this with reversed length in the minors.
I would not feel sorry to miss the slam.

[inquiry]

How do you get to slam? By mistake? or by confusion? Sure it makes, but bidding it, bidding it would be hard even on purpose.

Playing negative free bids, it might go...

1♥ - (1♠) - 2♦* - (2♠)
3{sp[ - (dbl) - 4♣* - (pas)
6♦* - (All pass)

Where 2♦ is negative free bid, this auction denies 3♥'s else fit jump
3♠ looking for ♠ stopper,
4♣ no ♠ but something useful in ♣, denies a singleton or void in ♠
6♦, I feel lucky, maybe that ♠ loser can get tossed. PArtner has ♣K and fair ♦'s.

Something like that. Key is not only the negative free bid, but the willingness to bid 4♣. If north was one more ♦ and one less ♠ he would pass the double, south would rdbl showing first round control, and perahps a grand slam and surely a small slam would be bid easily. West should not double 3♠. What good does that do? Playing anti-double with AQ of hearts, a dobule of 3♠ asking for ♥ lead might be useful, but this is not the case.