[flytoox]

coyot, on Aug 15 2005, 08:28 PM, said:

I'll try to defend a little more:

A)

(1♦)-4♥ might not show weak hand, just too ugly?

Well, I don't want to give my partner guesses. While it has some merits to play bids with intent to preempt OR make (and hiding the true intent from opps), this is good when your partner does not NEED to know. If they bid 5♦ or 4♠, should he bid 5♥ or pass? Will you miss a slam if he passes and you double with the ugly hand?

I think that it is just a matter of agreement how to show a hand that would want to play 4♥. One of them is takeout double and then jump...



The jump to 3-4♠. I see no reason to jump to 4♠ when I can jump to 3♠, telling partner that I have a good onesuiter, too good to jump to 2♠. And I don't want to jump to game with 6suiter and 7 HCP, when my void happens to be in a suit where partner most certainly has some values.

In other words: Paint me some hands that are not good enough to jump to game and too good to jump to 2♠. I think there is plenty of room to differentiate and 4♠ is an overbid in this sense. What will you do with a better hand, one of almost opening values? (If your system does not handle it for some reason, that is...)

Donot thinnk you can defend too much about the t/o dbl. The hand itself suffice to show why dbl is wrong. The key issue here is exactly you cannot handle a 4S call from pd. If your long suit is spade and have a void in heart. Then you can try to defend a t/o dbl. Even in that case, I would still prefer to overcall 4S.

[coyot]

flytoox, on Aug 16 2005, 04:51 AM, said:

Donot thinnk you can defend too much about the t/o dbl. The hand itself suffice to show why dbl is wrong. The key issue here is exactly you cannot handle a 4S call from pd. If your long suit is spade and have a void in heart. Then you can try to defend a t/o dbl. Even in that case, I would still prefer to overcall 4S.

That's the point I am trying to make - don't jump to 4♠ with the above hand - 3 will be enough...

What I want in competitive bidding:

1) Jumps to any level to be generally preempts (definitely not with a 20HCP hand with a void).

Case study: Imagine a hand with which you want to preempt opps with 4♥ against a passed partner and LHO bidding 1♦. Now, what is your partner supposed to do with two side aces? Bid a slam that does not make because opps have two aces as well? Don't think so. Yet, with a 20HCP hand like the below, you might easily miss a slam if you bid 4♥ to play.

2) Simple overcalls showing hands that are not good enough for game on their own.

Now, putting these two points together, there is no room for the hand in question in these two bids. That leaves cue-bid (which I prefer for 2suiters) and double. I have absolutely no problem showing a hand that is 1 trick short of a game via takeout double.

And I think that it is wholly OK to sacrifice one of FOUR possible strong bids with spades to prevent distasters like this. Don't you think that between 2♠, 3♠ and cue-bid, there is enough room to describe all spade hands that were not good enough to open 1♠ or not suitable for preempt? Don't tell me there are SO many hand types (that cannot be opened) that you need FOUR different strong bids for them.

Yes, I am willing to take the risk that I jump to 3♠ with the above hand and my partner with unattractive values passes. So, we will miss a 9card fit game on 19-21 HCP, that is not the end of the world. And it is a fair price for bidding a few good slams correctly.

[helene_t]

Coyot, you may be right that 4♠ was unnecessary, but dbl with shortness in an unbid major causes other problems.

Recently, we had this auction in a F2F tournament:
(1♦)-pass-(pass)-dbl
(pass)-1♥-(2♦)-3♣
a.p.

Partner had a weak hand with 6-card hearts and a doubleton clubs. Presumably, she passed because she thought that I had a big hand with clubs and no hearts. That possibility didn't occur to me, I thought I had promised 3+ hearts (on a blue moon maybe 2) already.

[Jurek S]

I'd open 2♠, pard doubled after pass - 1♦ so from his side it seems that 4♠ rebid is almost impossible (no 6+ ♠ - that's why I'd open).

[coyot]

helene_t, on Aug 16 2005, 06:22 AM, said:

Coyot, you may be right that 4♠ was unnecessary, but dbl with shortness in an unbid major causes other problems.

Recently, we had this auction in a F2F tournament:
(1♦)-pass-(pass)-dbl
(pass)-1♥-(2♦)-3♣
a.p.

Partner had a weak hand with 6-card hearts and a doubleton clubs. Presumably, she passed because she thought that I had a big hand with clubs and no hearts. That possibility didn't occur to me, I thought I had promised 3+ hearts (on a blue moon maybe 2) already.

I know this can cause problems...

One possible solution - don't play 2-suiters on reopen (no need to preempt) - so use cue-bid for onesuiters that are too good for takeout.

Playing strong onesuiter doubles only requires partner to calculate with such a possibility. If you have 20HCP with 0634 shape, overcalling 1♥ may cost you a game, because the opps won't reopen the bidding.

My first bridge book said that takeout is 12+ or 15+ with own suit or 18+ anything.

I've changed the numbers, basically making it 12+ with support for unbid suits or 18+ anything (and 16+ balanced as I like Polish NT overcall), so my suit overcalls range from 8HCP to some 17HCP... And that is wide enough to put a pressure on partner as when to bid in order to not miss a good game.

Deciding between double and overcall is influenced by opps as well. I can safely overcall 1♥ with the above hand if I know that the opps will 99% reopen with the spades that they seem to have (my p will not have a 6card unless with 4 hearts ) - but with old ladies that frequently pass behind an overcall with 8-9 HCP, I simply cannot afford the risk of playing 1♥+3 , so I MUST bid it as a strong one-suiter... and if partner jumps in spades, pity... I might then play 4♥ down a few if he has only spade values... but this is the mirror to partner jumping to 4♠ with the shown hand, risking to find 12-13 HCP with useless KJxx in hearts and going down as well.

It is all a matter of dividing bidding space among various hand types.

The problem with spade jump is obvious - the difference between a hand that would bid 3♠ and a hand that would bid 4♠ is next to nil. (To all those who advocate jump to 4♠ - tell me, what less would you want to have in the hand to jump to 3♠ only (and yet consider jump to 2♠ a bad bid).

The problem with overcall vs. takeout is basically the same. You either overload the overcall OR overload the double. Overloading the double IMHO provides much more space later in the bidding to clarify.
Especially in modern aggressive bidding, you need light overcall. You need preempts as much - and that means that hands that really want to make 4♥ with little outside help NEED to be bid somehow else - and the double is the only free spot.

[Blofeld]

coyot, on Aug 16 2005, 07:04 AM, said:

but this is the mirror to partner jumping to 4♠ with the shown hand, risking to find 12-13 HCP with useless KJxx in hearts and going down as well.

I don't quite follow this.

Opposite a minimum classic-shape takeout double with your 'wasted heart values', say:
Kxxx
KJxx
x
KQxx

we find that 4♠ is very likely to make with chances of an overtrick, while they may well be taking 10 tricks in hearts.

Even without the ♣Q, the hand might just scrape up a takeout double. Yet even opposite the working 8 count here the spade game has some play.

If I've been made to pass first time, I can't imagine bidding anything other than 4♠ at my second turn.

[P_Marlowe]

helene_t, on Aug 16 2005, 06:22 AM, said:

Coyot, you may be right that 4♠ was unnecessary, but dbl with shortness in an unbid major causes other problems.

Recently, we had this auction in a F2F tournament:
(1♦)-pass-(pass)-dbl
(pass)-1♥-(2♦)-3♣
a.p.

Partner had a weak hand with 6-card hearts and a doubleton clubs. Presumably, she passed because she thought that I had a big hand with clubs and no hearts. <snip>

You did exacty that.

You showed a strong suit, how on earth should
partner know, that his 6 card suit plays better
that yours, he has no idea unless you show him
your hand.

With kind regards
Marlowe

[Al_U_Card]

With the 7 loser hand, you may be a bit too good for a weak 2. I loathe making 1st seat one bids with super minimum hands even though this one has so many redeeming features (easy 2S rebids, potential Club fit with pard etc.) More so 1st seat 2 bids that get in pard's way.

The H void says get into the auction so at unfavourable conditions I would pass but at equal vulnerability I would bid 1S and at favorable vulnerability 2S.

Given the pass, I have no problem with the 20 hcp double and bid intention of your partner. Cater to this possiblility by q-bidding their suit (either D or H) and then correcting to S. (Often RHO will bid 1H over the double.)

[Double !]

as an "advanced player", my approach in making a decision whether or not to start with a takeout dbl is that P's responses with be predicated on the assumption that you at least close to a classic or template takeout double (4441 with shortness in opener's suit). Without that type of hand, if you're doubling on a GOSH, it has to be good enough to handle any response that responder might make. Heart suit on this hand is not independent enough for such action. Right or wrong, I would have simply overcalled 1 heart and followed up with stronger bidding depending on what my partner responded. I am probably in the minority on this, just my style. (lol: anyone for strong jump-overcall? yeah, right.) I sympathize with your decision to not open 2S due to heart void and no A or K in your suit. The only redeeming feature to opening 2S is the mild internal solidity of the spade suit. This is really an issue for partnership discussion/ agreement IMO.

[Fluffy]

North's hand is a clear 3♠ opening to me, but seems that's just me.

1 thing I have pretty clear is that North has an automatic 4♠ bid after partner's take out double, sure you can miss slam, but hands that make it are pretty much built up for it. And losing your time when LHO can be willing to bid 4♥ is something I won't let him do.

As other's said, doubling with a void on a side suit is simply ridicoulous, when that suit is ♠... even more.


About te discusion if you don't open weak 2 with X, or Y, or whatever, I don't follow any of those theories, as Luis said there is no hand between 1♠ and 2♠, but rather I find a lot of them who fit both. Only exception I have sympathies with is the 2 aces and nothing else rule, althou I don't follow it, and it has more to do with suit quality than with defensive strenght.

[the hog]

Personally I would have opened 2S and find the given rationale for passing difficult to accept. I agree with Phil that 90%, probably more, of strong players who play weak 2 bids will open that hand.

I also cannot possibly believe that anyone would overcall 1H on that monster; this is laughable. The hand is virtually cold for 5H opposite xxxxxx Jx Qx Qxx and partner will pass and the hand will be passed out. Explain that to your partners!! Furthermore, give your partner 6D to the A and nothing else and you have a good play for 7D.

This hand is a good argument for not jumping to game with a hand that cannot open the bidding. As Coyot points out, there a number of ways to show S hands.

[mike777]

The_Hog, on Aug 16 2005, 06:24 PM, said:

Personally I would have opened 2S and find the rationale for passing difficult to accept. I agree with Phil that 90%, probably more, of strong players who play weak 2 bids will open that hand.

Wow, this remark by you and Phil really surprises me.
90% or more of strong players agreeing on any one bridge issue always surprising let alone this hand.

[the hog]

helene_t, on Aug 16 2005, 09:22 PM, said:

Coyot, you may be right that 4♠ was unnecessary, but dbl with shortness in an unbid major causes other problems.

Recently, we had this auction in a F2F tournament:
(1♦)-pass-(pass)-dbl
(pass)-1♥-(2♦)-3♣
a.p.

Partner had a weak hand with 6-card hearts and a doubleton clubs. Presumably, she passed because she thought that I had a big hand with clubs and no hearts. That possibility didn't occur to me, I thought I had promised 3+ hearts (on a blue moon maybe 2) already.

Helene, I think both you and your partner misbid. Your partner did not overcall initially, therefore a 2H bid from her now would have shown a weak hand with 6H. (Else why not overcall immediately).
I assume that jumps by you in the pass out seat are intermediate, so I too would assume that you were showing a stronger hand with no H support with your 3C bid.

[000002]

(1) open 2♠ better than pass
(2) you can leap 4♠,but 3♠on your's own is sufficient
(3) why u rebid 5[hi] based on partner's passed hand?

[helene_t]

The_Hog, on Aug 17 2005, 05:35 AM, said:

helene_t, on Aug 16 2005, 09:22 PM, said:

Coyot, you may be right that 4♠ was unnecessary, but dbl with shortness in an unbid major causes other problems.

Recently, we had this auction in a F2F tournament:
(1♦)-pass-(pass)-dbl
(pass)-1♥-(2♦)-3♣
a.p.

Partner had a weak hand with 6-card hearts and a doubleton clubs. Presumably, she passed because she thought that I had a big hand with clubs and no hearts. That possibility didn't occur to me, I thought I had promised 3+ hearts (on a blue moon maybe 2) already.

Helene, I think both you and your partner misbid. Your partner did not overcall initially, therefore a 2H bid from her now would have shown a weak hand with 6H. (Else why not overcall immediately).
I assume that jumps by you in the pass out seat are intermediate, so I too would assume that you were showing a stronger hand with no H support with your 3C bid.

This makes sense. Maybe it's different in 4th seat. Also because the risk of preemption is small so you don't get something like:
(1♥)-dbl-(3♥)-4♠
(pass)-$@#*!??

[coyot]

Blofeld, on Aug 16 2005, 09:12 AM, said:

coyot, on Aug 16 2005, 07:04 AM, said:

but this is the mirror to partner jumping to 4♠ with the shown hand, risking to find 12-13 HCP with useless KJxx in hearts and going down as well.

I don't quite follow this.

Opposite a minimum classic-shape takeout double with your 'wasted heart values', say:
Kxxx
KJxx
x
KQxx

we find that 4♠ is very likely to make with chances of an overtrick, while they may well be taking 10 tricks in hearts.

Even without the ♣Q, the hand might just scrape up a takeout double. Yet even opposite the working 8 count here the spade game has some play.

If I've been made to pass first time, I can't imagine bidding anything other than 4♠ at my second turn.

Sorry, but the minimum you painted is OPTIMAL and highly improbable (4441 shape ).

And, given your spade length, the conditional probability of the doubler having a 4card becomes much lower.

His most likely shapes are 3424 or even 3523. (Or, even 3433 if he has a little extra strength, maybe).

Anyway, the point I want to make is simple: Jumping to game is wasting space if partner happens to have anything better than classic takeout. Jump to 3♠ will be hardly ever passed by the doubler, because it gets the message across that you have a very good hand on long spades... and if you fear that partner will pass this, you can always bid 2♦ and listen for what partner has to say.

Any of the above auctions will protect you against better than classic takeout hands - and you will hardly ever miss a good game.

I am again asking the proponents of jump to 4♠:
What would a jump to 3♠ show (that would be SO frequent a type of hand that you would consider it too good for 2♠ and not good enough for game?
(Not mentioning the possibility to bid game-hands via cuebid. It does not cost anything, partner will most likely bid 2♥ with minimum, 3NT with stronger notrump and jumpsuit with a strong onesuiter.)

[I am not trying to argue that this hand is too weak to play 4♠ against a regular takeout. I would most likely reach the game, too - but I don't think that a direct game jump is a good idea, especially when I have a lot of other options, of which some might easily protect me from those sad cases where partner's hand turns to be unsuitable for 4♠.

[the hog]

Interestingly I don't think as a passed hand that there is ANY hand I can think of that is worth jumping to 4S. (I would have opened them all!)

As an unpassed hand, I think it is perfectly reasonable to bid 4S on QJT9xx and an outside A. Now if pd did X on the very strong hand, he can pass in the knowledge that pd hold THIS type of hand. The he S holding is playable opposite a void. I don't know if anyone is prepared to make a distinction between passed and unpassed hands, but it does make sense.

[flytoox]

The_Hog, on Aug 17 2005, 01:44 PM, said:

Interestingly I don't think as a passed hand that there is ANY hand I can think of that is worth jumping to 4S. (I would have opened them all!)

What about this one:
S:765432
H: KX
D: AXXX
C: X

[inquiry]

flytoox, on Aug 17 2005, 10:11 AM, said:

The_Hog, on Aug 17 2005, 01:44 PM, said:

Interestingly I don't think as a passed hand that there is ANY hand I can think of that is worth jumping to 4S. (I would have opened them all!)

What about this one:
S:765432
H: KX
D: AXXX
C: X

3♠ more than enough with that hand. In fact a jump to 2♠ would not be totally out of place.

What is the real distinction between cue-bid, jump to 2M and Jump to 3M and Jump to 4M after a takeout double? I guess you have to decide on your own. but my rules are fairly simple.

1) I don't jump with four card suit, With 0 to 10 hcp, and four card suit, I bid 1♠ (yes even with ten). This allows partner to make light takeout doubles.

2) with good 6-10 points and five card suit, jump to 2M

3) with 11-12 and five card suit or a few points less and a six card suit, jump to 3M. The example hand has a control rich seven hcp and a sixth spade, making it boarderline low 3S bid.

4) with 11-12 and four card suit, cue-bid, with better than 13 or more, cue-bid.

Notice, leap to 4M is not in the list. This doesn't mean such bids don't exist. This shows "my suit" (good six card suit), and a "weak two" opener kind of hand with the presumed fit. That is, it is the 10=12 hand that jumps to 3M but with a good suit of own and six or seven cards.

Of course, you can use your own responding scheme. But if you make a takeout double, you should be PREPARED for partner to bid 4 of any unbid major.

[reisig]

For me - There is no such thing as too good for 2♠ but not good enough for 1♠. I don't care what you choose (2 for me) ...but Pass is not a choice.