[sartaj1]

Is anyone aware of a weak NT pair playing a different system in fourth seat ?
Me and pd play weak NT, 5 cd M
In 3rd seat vul, we play 14-16 NT and 4 cd M
In 4th seat, we switch back to weak NT and 5 cdM.

We have observed that 4th seat opening auctions rarely get seriously competitive, so the natural meaning of our actions is not pulling its full weight.

However, we have had a few auctions where it goes 1D - 1NT and we miss a 15/16 opposite 9 game. Since our partnership style is to try and bid game on every hand, this is a serious liability.

I am wondering if some others have faced similar issues and tried some new approach (and how they fared)...
An example i can think of is
Like 1C = any strong NT or clubs
Rest natural, not strong NT.

ps. Pls be aware that i have posted the same question to RGB as well.

[helene_t]

Gromov-Petrunin play weak in 1st and 2nd, 14-16 in 3rd and 4th.

[Fluffy]

I've seen mini NT 9-11 or so first 2 positions and then strtong (or slightly stronger at least) 3rd and 4th.

[pbleighton]

I play 10-13 in 1-3 and 14-17 in 4th. Our weak 2s (including 2C) are 9(8)-12 and very undisciplined, so pd rarely has 10.

Peter

[Free]

I play 11-14 in 1&2 and 13-16 in 3&4 (strong ♣ systems). Since we open light in 1&2 seat, there's no need to open light in 3&4 seat, so we keep bidding solid over there.

[EricK]

I have seen 11-13 & 5 card majors in 1&2 along with 14-16 and 4 card majors in 3&4.

The rationale of switching to 4 card majors is that you have lost the pre-emptive effect of 1NT but you get it back by the pre-emptive effect of 1M.

Eric

[Stephen Tu]

Quote

However, we have had a few auctions where it goes 1D - 1NT and we miss a 15/16 opposite 9 game

Don't include 9 counts in your 1nt response. Have 1nt=5-8, bid 2d or 2c with 9+.

[Double !]

Doesn't Meckwell vary the NT ranges depending on seat and vulnerability?

[pbleighton]

"Doesn't Meckwell vary the NT ranges depending on seat and vulnerability?"

They play 9-12 inNV 1-3, 14-16 else.

Peter

[MickyB]

AFAIK Meckwell only play 9-12 1st+2nd seat NV against vul.

As Stephen says, if you are putting 15-16 flat in your 1D opener then make a 2/1 on most 9 counts. Personally I'd rather stick with 14-16 NT and 4 card suits in 4th seat - IIRC 14-16 is more common than 12-14 in this position, and being able to make lead directing openings is useful.

[mikeh]

I have played several weak ranges in 1st and 2nd (10-12, 11-13, 11-14), and always combined this with strong in 3d and 4th. In a big ♣ context, 14-16, in standard methods 15-17 or 14-16.

I see no advantage to opening weak 1N in 4th seat. Several bad things can happen:

The most common is missing a 4-4 major fit. By definition, it is unlikely that partner has the values to move over a weak 1N, so cannot afford to stayman.
You can remove this risk by restricting 1N to hands without a major, but now you will be easier to defend against and the bid will come up far less frequently.

You have no game with a weak notrump in 4th seat, so you lose the advantage that ordinarily flows from the use of a narrowly defined opening bid combined with (for any experienced partnership) a well-designed constructive bidding method.
For many partnerships, their most accurate methods are after 1N: why negate that edge by using 1N in situations where your best tools are irrelevant?

You may, especially if vulnerable, score a minus in 1N when 2 of a minor was superior, but unreachable for you.

And what good things happen?

Well, you may preempt the opps. LHO, having passed in 1st seat may have an overcall of a minor opening and yet be forced to pass 1N. Of course, when they can make 2M, they may also go plus against 1N.

You may right-side 1N, but that is a random event, and, besides, maybe you'd right side it if you opened 'normally' anyway.

I know that I like playing against pairs who open weak 1N in 3rd and 4th chair... so that tells me something

As for 4 card majors: I am a true believer: especially when combined with a detailed drury method, of which several are widely available.