[pbleighton]

Playing sayc with pickup pd, you hold:

AKx-KQxxx-987-xx

With opps silent, partner opens 1C, you respond 1H, he rebids 2C. What is your bid?

[luis]

2 spades almost automatic.

[inquiry]

Quote

Playing sayc with pickup pd, you hold:

AKx-KQxxx-987-xx

With opps silent, partner opens 1C, you respond 1H, he rebids 2C. What is your bid?

I disagree with luis on this one. Playing SAYC 2SPADES would cleary be a reverse and shows a "monster" hand. Playing 2/1 GF, I would be likely to rebid 2S, but never SAYC.

The only real options seem to be me to be 2D, 2H, and 2NT. Most SAYC players play 2NT also shows a good hand, I prefer it to show this type of junk. If your 2NT shows extra values, then your choice is between a two unsatisfactory bids. 2D on 9 hight (if I had an honor or two in diamonds, having 3 cards would not deter me from rebidding it) or 2H. I guess I would rebid 2H on this particular hand.

Ben

[luis]

Why would 2s show a "monster" hand? It is just forcing to game or better and that's what I have.
2NT without any card in diamonds is clearly wrong to me and it wrong-sides the contract.
2h is non-forcing! and you have 12 with 4 controls! C'mon do you really want to play 2h? You ar denying about an Ace and a King with that bid. How can pd take a good decision if you bid 2h with Ax, QJxxx, xxx, xxx and ALSO with AKx, KQxxx, xxx, xx.
I won't try to change your mind Ben but if you play with me when you have an opening bid and I open the bidding we are entitled to play some game.
I think 2s is so automatic....

[inquiry]

Your mistake, Luis, deals with a misunderstanding of sayc. There is no forcing 1NT, and 2C DOES NOT promise an opening hand as you suggest in your 2nd reply. Again, your 2S response, when playing 2/1 game force, is right. But when holding a bare 12 count, as flat a distribution as you can have for a 1H opening bid, and not even anything special in intermediate cards, this hand is not even close to an SAYC 2S rebid.

In sayc your partner could have as little as an 8 count with bunch of clubs. And in SAYC, a reverse after a 2-over-1 response is 100% game force and shows on the order of 18 hcp+ or comparable playing stregth. If the question had been what to bid playing 2/1... again, a 2S bid would be my choice, but never, ever playing SAYC.

Ben

[Dan_Neill]

Bidding is 1C-1H-2C-?, not 1H-2C-?

[pbleighton]

"Bidding is 1C-1H-2C-?, not 1H-2C-? "

Yes.

Peter

[inquiry]

Opps... my bad.. i thought I opened 1HEART... Yes, 2S is automatic.

[luis]

Gee :-) You scared me Ben :-))

[Codo]

why why why is 2 Spade almost automatic?

I would bid an automtic 2 Diamond, NMF. In my book this askes for:
1. Do you have 3 Hearts?
2. Do you stop diamonds?
3. What is your overall strength?
4. Anything else you may want to tell me?

Wow, ecaxtly the questions I need answers about.
SO why lie with 2 Spade if you have a simple easy rebid?

Kind Regards

Roland

[luis]

NMF applies over a 1NT response unless you have a special agreement with pd.

[hrothgar]

why why why is 2 Spade almost automatic?

I would bid an automtic 2 Diamond, NMF. In my book this askes for:
1. Do you have 3 Hearts?
2. Do you stop diamonds?
3. What is your overall strength?
4. Anything else you may want to tell me?

Wow, ecaxtly the questions I need answers about.
SO why lie with 2 Spade if you have a simple easy rebid?

New Minor Forcing is a useful convention.
However, the original poster specified that the pair was playing SAYC
Your 2D response bid doesn't mean what you think it does.

[EricK]

Quote

why why why is 2 Spade almost automatic?

I would bid an automtic 2 Diamond, NMF. In my book this askes for:
1. Do you have 3 Hearts?
2. Do you stop diamonds?
3. What is your overall strength?
4. Anything else you may want to tell me?

Wow, ecaxtly the questions I need answers about.
SO why lie with 2 Spade if you have a simple easy rebid?

Kind Regards

Roland

Why does 2D ask "Do you stop Diamonds?" rather than "Do you stop spades?" or "do you stop "Diamonds and spades?"?

2S in any natural system (Acol, SAYC, standard Martian etc) shows GF strength, spades stopped, diamonds not stopped. Simple.

Eric

[inquiry]

In SAYC 2DIAMONDS is passable showing a diamond suit and non-forcing.

Ben

[bglover]

The question is, does responder have enough to force game? 2S creates a game force, showing a little more than this hand has. So, Luis' answer is not as offbase as Ben makes it out to be, but it does show more than a 12 count.

2D is problematic because it may lead to 3N without either hand having a stopper... 2H is out on strength issues as well as length issues. (Too strong and not long enough which is why I cant bid 3H either).

Therefore, thru a process of elmination I will bid 2S as the least of evils... partner cannot have 4 since he would have bid them, and with any luck he either raises hts or bids NT and then I am happy.

It's an imperfect bid whatever I choose.

[the hog]

"2S in any natural system (Acol, SAYC, standard Martian etc) shows GF strength, spades stopped, diamonds not stopped. Simple."

Most amusing! I would have thought that "2S in any natural system" including Standard Martian would show a S suit and lead to a decent 4S contract with say

AKJx-KQxxx-98-xx

facing
Qxx- A- xx- AKxxxxx

Perhaps natural is not so natural after all! At least Ben's explanation makes sense if 2D is nf. (As an aside, why on earth would you play 2D as nf in this sequence, even if it is "systemic"?)

[EricK]

Quote

"2S in any natural system (Acol, SAYC, standard Martian etc) shows GF strength, spades stopped, diamonds not stopped. Simple."

Most amusing! I would have thought that "2S in any natural system" including Standard Martian would show a S suit and lead to a decent 4S contract with say

AKJx-KQxxx-98-xx

facing
Qxx- A- xx- AKxxxxx

Perhaps natural is not so natural after all! At least Ben's explanation makes sense if 2D is nf. (As an aside, why on earth would you play 2D as nf in this sequence, even if it is "systemic"?)

Sorry. I wasn't complete in my response. 2S can also be made with a spade suit and opener should certainly raise to 3S on the hand you give (even in Standard Martian). But since opener has practically denied 4S, it doesn't make sense to reserve a 2S bid for hands with 4S.

And I don't think 2D is non-forcing in this sequence. It is natural, forcing, but may not be a genuine suit, just a stop (just like 2S, in fact!).

Eric

[bglover]

"And I don't think 2D is non-forcing in this sequence. It is natural, forcing, but may not be a genuine suit, just a stop (just like 2S, in fact!)."


This gets back to agreements. Some players (me included) play that, once opener rebids his suit showing a minimum, any subsequent bid by responder is non forcing IF it doesn't reverse his original suit or is a jump of some sort.

Not everyone plays this way, I know, but it is certainly not an uncommon treatment. I would play 2D as passable here with known partners, and assume it was forcing playing with a pick up partner.

[Codo]

Hi Ben et al,

1. In my notes it is never said, that a new suit by responder is nonforcing in SAYC. This is your opinion, not SAYC. If I am wrong, take my apologisze and show me the text. (but we had this discussion before )

2. Is there any sense in play it this way? How many hand can you construct, where 2 Diamond non forcing is a winner after this auction? You can pass or rebid 2 Heart with weak hands. After all: You denied long diamonds anyway with your first bid. 2 Diamond nonforcing is a good idea, if you play walsh, but this is def. no part of sayc.

3. Just to be sure, I wrote NMF into my text.

4. To our heros, who think, that a new suit bid show a stopper in the new suit: What do you do with a hand with values but no valuable stoppers in the both missing suits? F.E.: xxx,AKQxx,Jxx,AK

Find another small lie? I would have a very easy rebid and you?

Or what about a hand like AK, KQxxx, xxx,xxx?
Still bid 2 Spade showing four OR a stopper?

Any reasons besides the personal believe, that it is necessary to show stoppers then to ask for them for your approach?

Kind Regards

Roland

[mishovnbg]

Hi Peter!
Rebids of responder after rebid form opener 2 in his opened suit is very difficulte bidding sequence. I played several gadgets, but dont like any of them. I will describe my favorite:
Cheapest new suit artifical forcing (Relay), inv+, dont promise bidded suit. It is similar to 1 minor - 1 major, 1NT - 2CL: Checkback. May be best way to bid, but very artifical and lose nat bid in relay suit. I can live with 2DI relay after 2CL rebid, but dont like 2HE/2SP relay after 2DI rebid.

Examples:

1CL-1HE, 2CL-?
2DI: Relay, inv+
2HE: NF, 5+HE
2SP: NF, 5+HE-4SP
2NT: NF, 5+HE-4DI
3CL: nat, inv
3DI: NF, 4HE-6+DI
3HE: inv, 6+HE
above: 3NT/4HE nat, autosplinters include in CL

1CL-1HE, 2CL-2DI(Relay), ?
2HE: min, 3 fit
2SP: max, 3 fit
2NT: max, no fit, stoppers
3CL: min, no fit
3DI: max, stopper+ DI
3HE: max, 3 fit
3SP: max, no fit, stopper+ SP

1DI-1HE, 2DI-?
2HE: NF, 5+HE, may have 4+CL
2SP: inv+, Relay
2NT: NF, 5+HE-4SP
3CL: NF, 4HE-6+CL
3DI: nat, inv
3HE: inv, 6+HE
above: 3NT/4HE nat, autosplinters include in DI

1DI-1HE, 2DI-2SP(Relay), ?
2NT: max, no fit, stoppers
3CL: max, no fit, missing stopper CL or SP
3DI: min, no fit
3HE: min, 3 fit
3SP: max, 3 fit

Misho