[sceptic]

What do each of you consider a reverse is

how many HCP?

can you add a bit for dist?

what use is ingbergman?

what in your opinion is the best way to handles reverse by either opener or as a responder

[Double !]

sceptic, on Aug 8 2005, 06:28 PM, said:

What do each of you consider a reverse is

how many HCP?

can you add a bit for dist?

what use is ingbergman?

what in your opinion is the best way to handles reverse by either opener or as a responder

instead of just thinking hcp, i ask myself what i plan to rebid after various possible rebids by responder, and whether or not i have the values for each potential rebid. I play that a reverse by opener promises another bid, that responder may not pass my reverse (an "expert" P recently did it to me), and that there should be a game somewhere if responder has more than a minimum initial response.
Point requirements are more important the less distributional my hand is as well as the less support i have for responder's initial suit. The better the support for partner, or the better the trick-taking potential of my hand, the less emphasis i place on points. i just need to be sure that i have the values for my promised 3rd bid.

can't comment on ingberman: never met him. lol
but, regardless of what kinds of responses to reverses you are playing, ensure that you and P agree on whether or not a prefernce to your first-bid suit is or is not forcing (example: 1D-1S-2H-3D?)

[the hog]

I guess this is prompted by a different thread where some posters said a 16 point 4522 hand qualified for a reverse and some didn't.

Well my standards are as follows. A reverse at the 2 level shows at least 16+ and decent suits and is gf after a 2/1; all reverses at the 3 level are gf. (On your original hand in the previous thread, the S suit is too tatty for reverse, and I would have rebid 1NT on the hand, slightly understating my strength.)

Ingberman, or blackout are very useful conventions to allow you to stop in a part score after auctions such as
1C 1S 2D or similar. This means that 3C by resp now would be a gf. It allows for slower and more accurate auction progression.

Also be aware that some 2/1 players play an abomination that reverses do not show extra strength. How they define their values is beyond my ken; I guess they don't when I see some of the "wonderful" slams the bid.

[Elianna]

The_Hog, on Aug 8 2005, 08:30 PM, said:

Also be aware that some 2/1 players play an abomination that reverses do not show extra strength. How they define their values is beyond my ken; I guess they don't when I see some of the "wonderful" slams the bid.

I suggest you try reading Hardy's book on 2/1.

[mike777]

The_Hog, on Aug 8 2005, 10:30 PM, said:

Also be aware that some 2/1 players play an abomination that reverses do not show extra strength. How they define their values is beyond my ken; I guess they don't when I see some of the "wonderful" slams the bid.

After a one over one, yes a reverse shows strong, 17+ total points often.
Try this.
After a 2/1 no a reverse does not show extra, but 2/1 does promise 14+ very often, not junky 12. This allows you to bid out your shape, where your HCP are.

What to play over a reverse is the subject of endless debate. No expert agreement. Pick something and play it. If it is worthless, try something else.

Ingberman, Monroe, correct spelling, was Godfather of the Aces team, please forum read your history.

[Double !]

mike777, on Aug 8 2005, 10:55 PM, said:

Ingberman, Monroe, correct spelling, was Godfather of the Aces team, please forum read your history.

Do you mean the Dallas Aces? That's interesting.
I thought that he came from the NY area/ guess I'm wrong.

I always associated Ira Corn with developing/ sponsoring the Dallas Aces. Thanks for the info.

[the hog]

Elianna, on Aug 9 2005, 01:39 PM, said:

The_Hog, on Aug 8 2005, 08:30 PM, said:

Also be aware that some 2/1 players play an abomination that reverses do not show extra strength. How they define their values is beyond my ken; I guess they don't when I see some of the "wonderful" slams the bid.

I suggest you try reading Hardy's book on 2/1.

I have and I stand by my comment. I suggest you read Lawrence's views.

Quote Mike:
"After a 2/1 no a reverse does not show extra, but 2/1 does promises 14+ very often, not junky 12. This allows you to bid out your shape, where your HCP are."

I disagree vehemently; this may be the style you play, it may also be the style recommended by Hardy. I think to play this way is awful. We have been through this debate before and the posted views are not just my own, but also those of most of the players I know whom I would regard as worth listening to who play a 2/1 structure. I stand by my comments but am not going to bother posting more on this as it has already been done to death.

[hrothgar]

Double !, on Aug 9 2005, 07:13 AM, said:

mike777, on Aug 8 2005, 10:55 PM, said:

Ingberman, Monroe, correct spelling, was Godfather of the Aces team, please forum read your history.

Do you mean the Dallas Aces? That's interesting.
I thought that he came from the NY area/ guess I'm wrong.

I always associated Ira Corn with developing/ sponsoring the Dallas Aces. Thanks for the info.

Corn was the money man
Ingerman was the first of two coaches employed by Corn to whip the aces into shape. For what its worth, I've normally seen more credit given to the second coach (Musucemei?)

[mike777]

Musumeci, Joseph, ya he was more the lovable Great Uncle to the Aces compared to the mean Godfather.

[P_Marlowe]

1) +16/17 HCP, is nice house number
2) of course, if you have 6-5 shape with AK
in both long suits, this is more than sufficient,
altough I would warn you, not to lower the req. very much,
because 6-5 shapes are only great, if you find a reasonable fit,
i.e. not just 6-2.
3) It increases the precision
4) no idea what you mean, keep it simple

With kind regards
Marlowe

[hrothgar]

A reverse is a bidding sequence such as

1♣ - 1N
2♥

in which the rebid is a higher suit that that which was initially opened...
Many bidding systems use such bidding sequences to show extra values.

Here's my own thoughts...

Assuming standard methods, a minimum strength reverse is just slightly too strong for a maximum strength strong NT. The following hand is right on the boundary

♠ K3
♥ KJ95
♦ K3
♣ AQ965

[helene_t]

A 2-over-1 reverse by opener shows enough strength to make 3m in a 5-2 reasonably playable. With a modest 16 HCPs, rebid the minor suit or open an off-shape 1NT. (Or rebid an off-shape 1NT playing weak 1NT opening). A reverse should promise a second bid IMO.

Responder can use either the fourth suit or 2NT (whichever is cheaper) as an artificial sign-off, but BBO-advanced allways uses 2NT. You can probably build some strong hand into that artificial bid as well but I haven't seen any texts about that issue.

A 2-over-2-response may or may not show (much) extras, depending on partnership agreement. However, if you don't play 2/1, it should show at least enough to force to game. I guess the most scientific treatment is to use the step rebid as a catch-all and then let a reverse show substantial extras. Since we are in a GF situation, "substantial extras" should mean a slamish hand rather than so-and-so-many HCPs. Using a rebid of the opening suit as a catch-all seems to me to be inefficient use of bidding space. Otherwise I have no strong opinion about this issue. I play it differently with different partners.

With a 4441-shape you can reverse with 19+ points. With 17-18 open 1♦ and rebid 2♣ (or open 1m and raise responder's 1NT to 2NT with a singleton in a minor suit).

Responder's reverse is often defined as GF since an invitational hand could use NMF of whatever you play. If you don't play a checkback structure, I suppose responder could reverse with an invitational hand as well. But in that case you probably don't play Ingberman either, so Ingberman does not apply after responder's reverse AFAIK.

In competition, some partnerships define reverses as somewhat lighter and may even be defined as non-forcing (14-17 HCPs but above all good shape). Without further agreement I would assume reverses in competition to be forcing and basically the same as uncontested reverses.

[hrothgar]

helene_t, on Aug 9 2005, 10:58 AM, said:

With a 4441-shape you can reverse with 19+ points. With 17-18 open 1♦ and rebid 2♣ (or open 1m and raise responder's 1NT to 2NT with a singleton in a minor suit).

Shudder...
GACK...
Moan...

[Gerben42]

My rule for a reverse is: Would I have opened if I had a King and a Queen less? If the answer is yes, the hand is worth a reverse. Extreme distributions are different as I hate opening on few defensive values but reversing on them is sometimes the right thing to do.

There is no such thing as a 3-level reverse (unless you count 1♦ - 2♠ - 3♥ or something).

After a 2-over-1 for me a reverse just shows "not minimum". It does not show the normal values for a reverse after 1-over-1. If that'd be the case, I'd still be waiting for the auction to come up!

[helene_t]

hrothgar, on Aug 9 2005, 11:48 AM, said:

helene_t, on Aug 9 2005, 10:58 AM, said:

With a 4441-shape you can reverse with 19+ points. With 17-18 open 1♦ and rebid 2♣ (or open 1m and raise responder's 1NT to 2NT with a singleton in a minor suit).

Shudder...
GACK...
Moan...

Was my statement incorrect? Sounds so. I really want to know why, then.

My idea is that with 19 points you are too strong for
1♦-1M
2♣
so you must reverse and then bid 3NT if responder signs off.

With 17-18 points you can't reverse since you would have to pass responders false preference for your first suit, thereby playing 3m in a 4-2 fit.

I'm sure there are more elegant solutions for 4441-shapes, I don't know any though.

Now Richard is going to tell me and I will have learned something today.

[Chamaco]

In my opinion, there are 2 types of reverses.

a. "POWER REVERSES": these are strong hand that have REAL high cards, usually 16/17+ hcp (but it's ok to agree 18/19+ if you like)

b. DISTRIBUTIONAL REVERSES: these are hands with LESS hcp than power reverses, usually in the 12-15 hcp range, but with extras in distribution.
These hands usually have 5-5.5 losesr

Example hand: AKxxx-AQTxx-xx-x = about 5 losers = "Distributional" reverses.
This type of hand has the same offensive potential than a "normal" hand with 17/18 hcp, so we should be able to show the extra strength, but at the same time inform pard that our defensive strength is not so high as a "power reverse".

============================================

In my opinion, a good bidding system should be able to show both types of reverses in a different way.

The "Power reverse" should be shown, because it will help partner to know that the power reverse hand can stand to penalize opponents, since it has a good share of defense in hcp.

The "distributional reverse" should be shown because it will help pard to know that the *offensive* potential of the hand has extras, and that slam or game can be reached even opposite a weak hand.

============================================


In this respect, I like systems that can discriminate hands with extra hcp (e.g. strong club systems or similar, or natural systems that use gadgets such as Gazzilli over a major and Multireverse over a minor), because, once you have denied lots of hcp, you are free to jump to show distributional reverses.

[helene_t]

sceptic, on Aug 9 2005, 02:11 PM, said:

K10xx KQJxx Ax kx

I heart  :  1NT
2 Spades

what do you bid with

Ax  xx  xxxxx xxxx

based on a nice 16 hcp hand

and is 1NT such a bad bid?  playing 2/1 or sayc

Bid 3♥ if that is weak, otherwise 3♥ via 2NT (Ingberman).

But I think you should just pass 1♥.

[Chamaco]

sceptic, on Aug 9 2005, 12:11 PM, said:

K10xx KQJxx Ax kx

This hand is not worth reversing IMO.

[Gerben42]

with given hand pass 1♥ - yes I know some here suggest not passing 1x with an ace. For me opening 1x shows not being afraid of partner's pass with one cover cards (King or Ace).

[ArcLight]

K10xx KQJxx Ax kx vs. Ax xx xxxxx xxxx

I heart : 1NT
2 Spades



The problem with the 2 Spade bid is pard has denied 4 Spades by bidding 1NT.
The problem with the 1NT bid is the contract is wrong sided, with clubs vulnerable.

Was 1NT worth bidding, as opposed to pass?

What will pard bid after your 2 Spade bid? A preference for hearts at the 3 level? He probably doen't have 3 hearts, so you wull be playing in a 5-2 fit or worse.
Should pard show his crummy diamonds at the 3 level? No.

1♥ - pass - let the opps compete, maybe you will set them, maybe not. But going to the 3 level gives them a good chance to set you.