[hallway]

How would you bid the following hands / why?

Both Hands:
Matchpoints
Non Vul
West Dealer



QJ10xxx                                      K9xx
--------                                         xxx
xxx                                              AKQJx
Axxx                                            x




AKxxxx                                       QJ10x
Q10                                            AKJxxx
Qxx                                             Axx
Jxx                                              ---------



ps - why does the type line up in the message box then comes out crooked in the Post ??   :'(  no amount of fiddling with the space bar seems to change it   :-/

[Codo]

Hi,

on the first hand,
I may open 3 Spade with a part who knows me, but in a pick up partnership and with most regular parts, I just pass. I don`t like prempts in first seat with a void and such a strong hand.
Without much discussion, this hand is closer to a 1 Spade opening then to a preempt (7 Loosers).
So, with the opps silent, (despite their HCPS and Heart length:
pass 1 Diamond
1 Spade 2 Spade
4 Spade
+ 2
If someone opens 2 or 3 Spade, 4 Spade from pd is clear cut. 10 trumps, a side shortage and a long side suit...
NO way to reach the slam...

2. Hand:

AKxxxx         QJ10x
Q10         AKJxxx
Qxx          Axx
Jxx           ---------

Maybe:

1 Spade 5 club       (voidwood)
5 Spade  6 Club      (2 KCs, Kings?)
6 Spade   ??             (no)

or
1 Spade  2 NT         (Jacoby)
4 Spade  5 Club       (Minimum, Club control)
5 Spade   ??             (dead duck minimum, okay..)

or
1 Spade    2  Heart
2 Spade    3  Spade            2 H is GF, so 3 S is  strong
4 Spade     5 Club                
5 Spade     ??

In the last line, 4 Spade denied any first or second round control in my bidding understanding. So here, 4 NT RCKB may work despite the fact, that you have a void.
Then it is:
...
4 Spade      4 NT
5 Heart        6 Club       (kings?)
6 Spade       ??              (no)

Bottom Line: I have no idea, how to find out that the Queen of Heart is in Pds hand after checking, that he has just AK of spades and no outside king or ace.

So, with the eastern power house, I have to decide if it is  6 or risky 7.
But I tend to bid no grand slams on hope, so I would stay in the small one.

Of course, after the event, I would think: We have 5 Spade tricks in pds hand, three high cards in the red suits in my hand. How are the chances to reach 5 more tricks?
The hearts could be established (with a ruff or two or Queen of H with pd) and I can ruff some clubs...
In most sequences, I got to know, that pd has at least xx in heart, as he denied a controll. That makes it quite sure, that we may score 5 heart tricks. (Opps. xx it is 68 % of 3-2 + some other chances) So, I count 5 Spade, 5 Hearts, 1 Diamond and two club ruffs + the possibility of the Queen of H in pds hand. (After all, he has just AK in Spade, and no other Ace or King...and still enough points to open...) and bid 7. But at the table, I won`t find it

Kind Regards

Roland
 

[inquiry]

How would you bid the following hands / why?

Both Hands:
Matchpoints
Non Vul
West Dealer

QJ10xxx        K9xx
--------       xxx
xxx            AKQJx
Axxx           x

There isn't much need to spend too much time on this one, the opponents will be bidding as well, they have 10Hearts, 9 clubs, and half the points. Having said that, there seems to be two possible auctions without enemy action. The first is WEST opens a weak two (or multi 2D) and the second, west passes. If West passes.. the auction might be (with an aggressive EAST who would visualize a slam oppoisite a passed hand)....
P  1D
1S 2S
4H 4N
6H 6S

4H = splinter
4N = blackwood
6H = one key card and a heart void
6S = ok.. .enough

I use void showing response to blackwood. With one control (or 3) and a void, I bid the void suit at the 6 level when spades are trumps (here 6H shows heart void, while 6C and 6D would have shown the respective minor suit void). If hearts are trumps, 6D/6C still show the minor suit void and 1 or 3 controls...but now, 6H would show the SPADE void. With 2 controls and a void, I respond 5NT, 6C ask for void. This responding system can be found on Eddie Kantar's webpage at www.kantarbridge.com/rkb.htm

I have to admit, that I would open WEST hand with weak two (some people would not with a void). If you open weak two  the auction might be...

2S P 4D P (4D =fit jump)
4H x P  P
XX P 4N P
6H X 6S P
P  P

This assumes you have agreed to play fit jumps to weak two opening bids. If you play splinters, East would bid 4Clubs and west still cue-bids his heart control. This would be enough to get responder excited for slam try, given his solid diamonds.

In either case, over blackwood the void showing response (1 control and a void) is used.


AKxxxx         QJ10x
Q10            AKJxxx
Qxx            Axx
Jxx            ---------

1S  5C
5S  6H
6N  7S

• 1S = Rule of 20, 12 hcp + 9 cards in longest suits = 21, - 1 point for doubleton Q still = 20, so I open the bidding
  
• Exlusion keycard blackwood (again see www.kantarbridge.com/rkb.htm )
  
• 3rd step = two controls outside clubs
  
• Specific suit asking bid, again see kantar
  
• This is first step (trump suit not a step) showing Q(x) or xx (third round control.
  
• I bid 7 - I fuflly expect to be able to set up long hearts and take 2 or 3 club ruffs.

I use exclusion roman keycard blackwood because the CLUB ACE is of no value to me. I use the SPECIFIC SUIT asking bid, because I want to be in grand slam if partner has third round control of hearts, and this bid ask for that information.

Kantar has a really marverlous RKCB write up... yzerman is starting an interest group in learning how to bid with this tool and I am working on a bridge movie showing hands bid this was as a kantar-rkcb learning tool.

ps - why does the type line up in the message box then comes out crooked in the Post ??   :'(  no amount of fiddling with the space bar seems to change it   :-/.... Because the standard font used on this system is proportionally spaced. Thus a SPACE takes up less space than a letter, and some letters take up more space than others. You can change this by changing to a fixed widith font, like courier. To do this, type the following text at the beginning of the text you want to be in courier (font=courier) EXCEPT use square brackets instead of normal paranthesis. Then at the end of where you want the courier font to stop, type (/font), AGAIN with square brackets instead of the curved ones. One square bracket looks like this. --> [

[hrothgar]

Hand 1

K9xx
xxx
AKQJx
x

QJ10xxx        
--------          
xxx          
Axxx          

I'm not going to get to slam
Playing "standard" I'd expect the auction to go

2S - 4S

I can think of auctions that would plausably reach 4S, however, I considered most of them double dummy.
At the table, holding responder's hand I would simply blast to game as quickly as possible.

On this hand, I would miss slam, however, I believe that a quick an uninformative auction will pay off in the long run.

Hand 2

QJTx
AKJxxx
Axx
-------

AKxxxx        
Q10        
Qxx          
Jxx            

Playing 2/1 I'm going to PASS in first seat.
I dont consider the hand to be appropriate for the sound opening bids that 2/1 requires.  I also think that the hand has far too much defense to pass.  

In this case, I'd expect an auction like

P   - 1H
1S -

Followed by a forcing spade raise.

Play SAYC, the auction should start

1S - 3H (3H = strong jump shift)

Slam is trivial to find

[inquiry]

Quote

Hand 2

Playing 2/1 ....(snip)

P   - 1H
1S -

Followed by a forcing spade raise.

Play SAYC, the auction should start

1S - 3H (3H = strong jump shift)

Slam is trivial to find

Well, reaching slam is not really the question. The question is how do you confidently reach the laydown grand slam. Thus, a sayc auction beginning with the strong jumpshift just muddles the auction I think. Clearly exclusion blackwood at the go is right.

Passing with West sound rule of 20 opening hand seems wrong. If you think it is not strong enough for 1SPADE, surely it must be good enough for 2S opening bid (assuming a real 6-2-3-3 14 card hand). After 2Spades, I think an exclusion asking bid works just as well again.

[hrothgar]

Rule of 20? I don't think thats a good guide line for a sound opening system like 2/1 GF.  I know luminaries disagree, however, I think that they're wrong.

More significantly, the hand in question does not meet the rule of 20.  Repeat after Hrothgar.

Queens are rarely worth 2 HCP.
Qxx is not worth 2 HCP.
QT is  MOST CERTAINLY not worth 2 HCP.

There is a lot of debate about whether there is a set of hands that is too strong to open with a weak 2 bid but still too weak to open.  I am of the opinion that there are hands with a low ODR that are too flawed to preempt with.  

The hand in question has far too much defense for me to be comfortable opening 2S.  I much prefer those Queens on defense than offense.

Its worth noting:  I prefer to play systems where I can open the hand in question.  This is precisely the reason why I play light opening systems in my serious partnerships.  However, this sure as hell don't look like a 2/1 opening bid to me.

[inquiry]

Quote

hrothgar said... More significantly, the hand in question does not meet the rule of 20.  Repeat after Hrothgar.
    Queens are rarely worth 2 HCP.
    Qxx is not worth 2 HCP.
    QT is  MOST CERTAINLY not worth 2 HCP.

Well, I certainly agree that doubleton or singleton queens are not worth 2 points. In fact, in justifying by rule 20 my opening bid, I counted it only as 1 point, when I said... "(I open)1S = Rule of 20, 12 hcp + 9 cards in longest suits = 21, - 1 point for doubleton Q still = 20, so I open the bidding . Having said that, look how wonderfully valuable that DOUBLETON HEART Queen actually is.

I disagree with your view that an opening bid playing 2/1 has to be really sound, I open rule of 20 hands as long as my anchor suit is not very weak (using a variety of plus and minuses, like a plus one point if I have both Tens in my two long suits, or T in one and 98 in the other.) But, if you open rule of 20 hands, it increases the minimum requirement for a 2/1 response and expands the range of the 1NT response.

You feel the hand has too much defense for 2S, I agree, but I  open it one 1S, not pass. It is clearly an opening bid for me in 2/1. But Hallway actually asked how YOU would bid this hand. I don't think it should be restricted to SAYC or 2/1. Go ahead and give mosicto, precision or whatever you like. I think alternatives is what she was looking for.

Ben

[hrothgar]

I didn't bother posting the MOSCITO auctions originally since they probably would be of little interest to anyone other than a relay freak.

Neither of these hands pose much problem for any one of a variety of relay systems.

The only interesting note is the 3H bid on hand 2.
Once the relay asker knows that partner holds one of 2 6322 hands I think that it makes sense to launch directly into RKCB without placing the tripleton.


Hand 2

QJTx
AKJxxx
Axx
-------

AKxxxx    
Q10    
Qxx      
Jx  

1H - 1S  (1H = 4 Spades, 1S = relay)
2S - 2N  (2S = single suited spades)
3C - 3H  (3C = 6322/6232 shape
              3H = 1430 RKCB in spades)
4C - 4S   (4C = 1430 RKCB in spades)
4N - 5D   (4N = Control Ask in Hearts, 5D = Qxx or AKx)
7S

Hand 1

K9xx
xxx
AKQJx
x

QJ10xxx    
--------      
xxx      
Axxx    

1H - 1S   (1H = 4+ Spades, 1S = relay)
2C - 2D   (2C = 5+ spades, 4+ clubs)
2N - 3C   (2N = 5+ Spades, 4 clubs, short hearts)
3N - 4C   (3N = 6034 shape, 4C = Slam Point Ask)
4D - 4H   (4D = 5 slam points, 4H = Denial Cue bid)
5C - 6S   (5C = Control in spades and clubs,
               no diamond control)

[inquiry]

Quote

I didn't bother posting the MOSCITO auctions originally since they probably would be of little interest to anyone other than a relay freak. SNIP

Thanks for posting the moscito auction. I have read Jari Bolings J-Moscito PDF available on the internet, as well as a word document on Moscito-2001 by, I think, maybe a Richard Wiley. But my understanding of the relay system is very limited, having never actually played it. In addition, these two resources do not agree with each other, and your example bidding shows you play something close to hybrid between the two. For instance, in J-moscito, it is my undertanding that 1H-1S-2S would show a three suit hand with a heart void, while in the 2001 version, the 2S rebid is as you describe it in hand 2. In fact, it looks like your hand 2 auction is consistent with that version, but your hand 1 auction goes differently.

Hand #1 is more interesting. I thought an opening bid of 1H was restricted to 9 to 14. Now I have seen examples of 1H bid stretched to 8 points, but these hands had 5 slam control points. This hand had only 7 hcp and 3 slam control points. Do you really open this 1H? What is the physical lower limit on hcp and slam control points that you will open 1H? Is this the worst holding or can you show other, weaker hands, you have opened 1H on?

Second, in moscito 2001 at least, the rebid on hand 2 would seem to be 2D (showing 4+ clubs) over the relay. So while your second hand looks vintage 2001 version, here you differ at two points... the opening seems light and the relay seems different.  This second suit relay (where 2C response to 1S relay shows Diamonds) seemed fairly unnecessary to me, and clearly you don't adopt that style. Why did you choose to go with the straight forward second suit showing bid, and do you know about how many people use a second relay and how many don't? Finally, as an educational exercise to help me understand the second distribution relay, could you cover all the possible rebid on this auction and what they show distributionally.

1H-1S
2C-2D

  2H - ?
  2S - ?
  2N - 5S+ and 4clubs, short hearts
  3C - ?
  3D - ?
  3H - ?
  3S - ?
  other?

Thanks,

Ben

[hrothgar]

Hi Ben

If you were using the MOSCITO 2001 notes, then you are most likely using an old version of my system summary.  [I haven't had as much chance as I'd like to update the notes since I wnt back to school]

In any case, there have been some radical changes in the MOSCITO structure since I first wrote those notes in early 2001.  Most notably, Paul Marston adopted a new response structure over 1C openings and a new relay structure over 1D/1H openings.

The relay structure over 1D + 1H were restructured to immediately clarify whether opener holds a 5 card major and also show whether he is a minimum or maximum for his opening.  In turn, this often allows responder to blast to 4M immediately after opener's rebid.  It also avoids the very awkward question regarding responder's rebid holding 3 card trump support and game invitational values.

You are correct that the hand in question

QJTxxx
VOID
xxx
Axxx

is somewhat light for an opening bid.
However,

K9xxxx
Void
xxx
Axxx

is an optional option.
[5 slam points with 10 cards between the 2 longest suits]
I spent a lot of time starting at this hand,
I eventually decided that given the choice between
pass and a slight overbid, that I would chose the overbid.

[inquiry]

Quote

Hi Ben

If you were using the MOSCITO 2001 notes, then you are most likely using an old version of my system summary.  [I haven't had as much chance as I'd like to update the notes since I wnt back to school]

Well, I thought they were your notes, which is why i said from richard....    However, like I said the notes showed the correct bid with 4+C in response to the relay was 2D, no 2C. I thought the notes (what, 150+ pages) were very nice btw. Look forward to the time when you can update them. Thanks for showing the auction.  

BTW, did you work for Dell in 2001?

Ben

[hrothgar]

Quote

Well, I thought they were your notes, which is why i said from richard....    However, like I said the notes showed the correct bid with 4+C in response to the relay was 2D, no 2C. I thought the notes (what, 150+ pages) were very nice btw. Look forward to the time when you can update them. Thanks for showing the auction.  

BTW, did you work for Dell in 2001?

Ben

Right now Paul is treating relay responder's secondary bids as natural rather than transfer.  I think he wants to make the system less scary.  I'm less sanguine about this change, however, I don't have the time required to make all the relevent changes so I simply am recording the state of the art with no re-optimizations.

I never worked at Dell.
Sorry

[hallway]

THANK YOU so much all of you for your replies.  

In a smallish  All Grades Club the Senior + have a tendancy to become a touch 'tetchy' when we ask too many questions.   :'(

Needless to say the best we came up with was 4S for each hand which was why the bidding reached at a couple of the tables did indeed intrigue us.

The actual bidding by one pair on these two hands went

Hand 1

2S  (weak 2)             2NT (art force)
3H (singleton/void)   4D
4H (void)                   4S
5C                             6S

Hand 2

1S                             2H
2S                             5NT
7S

I have printed out your replies for our 'discussion' time at our next weekly practice session, and they will doubtless be read with interest when I later on show them to the authors of the above bidding  

Again many many thanks - this is what makes BBO & BBF so GREAT   8)