[Winstonm]

Scoring: IMP

The auction:

S W N E
1N 3H 3S* 5H
?
*Forcing

What call do you make?

---

[pbleighton]

5S.

Peter

[inquiry]

If EW are honest souls, partner is void in hearts (or at least only one). He forced in a suit without the AK. It is possible we are off two quick tricks in either minor, as partner might venture 3S with QJxxxx void AKx xxx, but then they have to find the right suit to lead.

So rather than transfer the responsibility to partner to get it right by passing, or making a unilateral signoff of 5S, I am going to bid 6S. I expect a fair chance to get a chance to double 7H after this anyway.

Only other option is Pass (foring) but not sure you will find the best spot after that.

[P_Marlowe]

Pass, forcing.

With kind regards
Marlowe

[Chamaco]

I'd pass, forcing, which should show a good fit but not sure to make 5S.

[mikeh]

A forcing pass seems easy, but you have to consider what you intend to do after partner doubles. And double he almost certainly will, missing those top ♠.

Many (including me) play that 'pass and pull' is stronger than an immediate bid. My suspicion is that my ♥A is a wasted card: the opps are sure bidding as if they hold 10 ♥. I very much doubt that any slam of ours will depend on getting rid of one minor suit card on my Ace.

Furthermore, partner has not promised more than game-going values: and he was under pressure. We would all bid 3♠ on QJxxx void AJxxx Jxx, I would expect.

So I think that this hand is not quite good enough for a pass: I bid 5♠.

This announces strong trump support: why else commit to the 5-level. I may have even better ♠ than I announce, but that is made up for by the lack of any other good news. If slam makes opposite this hand, he will bid it. And if he has the hand that makes grand playable, he can haul out 5N.

BTW, I have a sneaking admiration for 6♠, hoping to catch a 7♥ bid. However I have two main concerns:

1) they may not bite... in fact I doubt that they would unless it was right to do so: they know we are guessing

2) partner will be over there thinking that we have a huge hand in support. He might consider 7♠ based on his QJxxxxx void Kxx AKx.... if he assumes we have no ♥ wastage (a reasonable assumption given that we bid slam opposite a hand that had shown no slam interest), then he can hardly be faulted for bidding 7♠

I like my partners to trust me... and so I refrain.

[mike777]

"2) partner will be over there thinking that we have a huge hand in support. He might consider 7♠ based on his QJxxxxx void Kxx AKx.... if he assumes we have no ♥ wastage (a reasonable assumption given that we bid slam opposite a hand that had shown no slam interest), then he can hardly be faulted for bidding 7♠"


5S

What hand will partner have to bid a game forcing 3S but not 4S or takeout X?
a) I reject the hand types where p hand very long spades and short hearts. Just bid 4S or 6S over 3H with that. Assume the 1NT opener will have the top spades if need be.
b*) bid takeout x with some crummy 4 or 5 card spades suit and short H.
c) Most likely hand is medium 5 card suit and medium values. With super outside values bid 6S over 5S.

[Al_U_Card]

Typical red vs white hi level decision. I DO like the forcing pass with the intention of pulling pard's double to 5S to show a hand that would like to be in 6 if he has the right cards......

[Fluffy]

pass forcing as well.

[awm]

I'd bid 5♠ here. There are the following options:

(1) Double. Probably should suggest heart cards and a poor fit for spades.
(2) Forcing pass, then respect partner's decision. Probably either some potential heart wastage OR not a great spade fit, wanting partner's input.
(3) Forcing pass, then bid 5♠. Suggests strong slam interest, should probably have a good maximum (i.e. nothing wasted in hearts).
(4) 6♠, or various actions which force to 6♠ at least. I think this is pretty silly in such an auction since partner has not necessarily announced any slam interest whatsoever and in fact even the game forcing 3♠ call maybe under duress.
(5) 5♠. This suggests an offensively oriented hand with a good spade fit, but not the sort of perfecto likely to make slam.

I'd definitely place this in group (5). We have AKxx of spade, making partner pretty unlikely to choose 5♠ if we make a forcing pass. With four trumps and only ace in hearts, I think (1) and (2) are probably wrong. On the other hand, (3) seems wrong too. We have minimum points, flat shape, and the heart ace is quite possibly wasted. I'd follow course (3) with something like AKxx xxx KQxx Ax but not with the hand given.

[Free]

easy pass (forcing)

[FrancesHinden]

I think this hand is a long way short of a pass-then-pull slam try. I would want 3 key cards and no heart honours to consider it.

On the auction, partner is probably expecting to defend about 80% of the time (either after you double, or after you make a forcing pass and he doubles). A positive statement from that you want to bid on (5S) is already a surprising call, and he would be entitled to raise that.

Partner is very likely to have a 2-suiter. He didn't bid 4S over 3H, so either he was interested in playing elsewhere or he has a slam try. If we believe the opponents (always dangerous) partner is likely to have a heart void. The HA is not working unless he is 0-2 in hearts and a minor with the minor suit ace. It wouldn't surprise me if both contracts are off.

I pass (forcing) planning to stand a double. If partner has a heart void he's not going to double unless very defensive, as my pass implies spade support.

[flytoox]

This is an interesting hand. You made a limited call. Pd made a game force call. What is the difference between 5S/x/pass? I think 5S should show an offensive hand within the context, not much waste in heart. dbl should show some waste in heart(cannot be much given the auction). So pass perhaps should show a waste but still good card, i.e., sth like HA. With HK or HQJx perhaps you shoudl double. I agree with pass. Biddin 6S is probably too much.

[Al_U_Card]

Lots to discuss on this one. I'm not sure that given the worst hand pard could have, 5S to the Q 1H and 4-3 in the minors with 8 hcp in those suits you dont want to play in 5S. Given the opps have 1 loser in S and H each, can you get them for 3 tricks in the minors? Quite the guess. I will admit that the defensive nature of the minors (Qxx,Qxx) argues for the dbl but that the extreme values in S and no losers in H wants to be in game++. My thought was that since I have no problem being in 5S, why not show pard that if he has the right hand for it he should bid slam. Pulling the double may downgrade the defensive values promised by the forcing pass but pard could have a lovely K and AK in the minors to go with his SQ and slam is there.

[mikeh]

Al_U_Card, on Aug 5 2005, 01:46 PM, said:

  I'm not sure that given the worst hand pard could have, 5S to the Q 1H and 4-3 in the minors with 8 hcp in those suits you dont want to play in 5S.....My thought was that since I have no problem being in 5S, why not show pard that if he has the right hand for it he should bid slam. 

[QUOTE]

You make an excellent argument for my choice: 5♠

You make a lesser argument for the forcing pass. The forcing pass, followed by a pull, is highly invitational to slam. Assuming that you have no right to bid 6♠ directly (and in my view, that is the correct proposition.... bidding slam by yourself is equivalent to putting on your superman cape), you have two ways of inviting slam. An immediate 5♠ emphasizes good trump while denying any otherwise good hand, while pass and pull shows the same trump holding and slam suitable minor cards.

[Al_U_Card]

mikeh, on Aug 5 2005, 02:17 PM, said:

You make a lesser argument for the forcing pass. The forcing pass, followed by a pull, is highly invitational to slam. Assuming that you have no right to bid 6♠ directly (and in my view, that is the correct proposition.... bidding slam by yourself is equivalent to putting on your superman cape), you have two ways of inviting slam. An immediate 5♠ emphasizes good trump while denying any otherwise good hand, while pass and pull shows the same trump holding and slam suitable minor cards.

My arguments, like my bidding and play, often leave something to be desired..... . Forcing passes when there are huge fit considerations always leave me with the impression that bidding on wins more ways than defending (at the 5 level). Still, queen thirds in the minors is the hardest thing to deal with in this hand. What value do they have and are they better to be used on defense (?) or on offense when pard has shown matching honor cards (I hope). (Holy stiff H King!)

[luis]

5♠ I would like to have better texture in the minors to make a forcing pass and then pull.

[Winstonm]

In these situations a useful tool is something I came up with last night and named the missing cards concept. Basically it is this:

If the opponents are highly likely to hold a 9 or 10-card fit and have jammed the auction, the strong hand should estimate partner's hand by using the fewest total number of the missing cards in the other three suits to construct a minimum hand for partner's bidding and then act accordingly. (This applies in a 9-card fit only if the strong hand has 3 cards in that suit.)

In the problem hand, the missing cards are: QJ, AKJ, AKJ. By using the fewest total number of cards to create a minimum hand you end up with something along the lines of Qxxxx, void, AKxx, xxxx. Do you want to play 5S on these cards?

There are only 4 ways to describe the NTers hand: bid, pass, double, and pass then pull the double. IMO, when the opponents hold at least 9 and probably 10 hearts, the concept of showing heart waste is of limited use - better understanding would be to tell partner what hand type you hold. Also, a better concept is to reverse the meanings of pass and double - double should show a stong willingness to bid on while pass should should doubt - this allows responder to convert a double with an unexpected card in opponents suit.

Using MCC and reverse pass/pull

A) AKxx, Axx, KQxx, xx - a reasonable chance to make 5S against a minimum hand using MCC. Qxxxx, x, xxx, AKxx. This is the direct 5S type hand.

B) AKxx, xxxx, KQx, KQ - Using MCC, partner rates to hold: Jxxxx, void, Axxx, Axxx 5S is the right spot. Double to show this hand. If partner turns out to have the wasted heart K with xxxxx of spades, he can convert.

C) AKxx, Axx, Qxx, Qxx - Opposite J9xxx, void, Axxx, Axxx you don't want to play 5S. Pass to show any hand with no clear cut offensive direction. (This would include those 2 in 20 hands where you were dealt KJ2 of hearts instead of Jxx so you do give up the strong suggestion of penalizing in favor of more precisely defining the offensive hand types.)

D) AKx, xxx, AK10xx, Kx - slam is in the picture opposite Qxxxxx, x, xx AQxx so show slam intentions with a pass then a pull.

Anyway, just some thoughts on the subject that seem to make some kind of sense out of a difficult situation. The idea is to tell partner what you should be able to make opposite his minimum holding, then if he has better cards he should be in a position to take reasonable action; the disadvantage is playing 5H doubled on hands where 5S could certainly be made.

Winston

[mike777]

Winstonm, on Aug 5 2005, 03:50 PM, said:

In these situations a useful tool is something I came up with last night and named the missing cards concept. Basically it is this:

If the opponents are highly likely to hold a 9 or 10-card fit and have jammed the auction, the strong hand should estimate partner's hand by using the fewest total number of the missing cards in the other three suits to construct a minimum hand for partner's bidding and then act accordingly. (This applies in a 9-card fit only if the strong hand has 3 cards in that suit.)

In the problem hand, the missing cards are: QJ, AKJ, AKJ. By using the fewest total number of cards to create a minimum hand you end up with something along the lines of Qxxxx, void, AKxx, xxxx. Do you want to play 5S on these cards?

There are only 4 ways to describe the NTers hand: bid, pass, double, and pass then pull the double. IMO, when the opponents hold at least 9 and probably 10 hearts, the concept of showing heart waste is of limited use - better understanding would be to tell partner what hand type you hold. Also, a better concept is to reverse the meanings of pass and double - double should show a stong willingness to bid on while pass should should doubt - this allows responder to convert a double with an unexpected card in opponents suit.

Using MCC and reverse pass/pull

A) AKxx, Axx, KQxx, xx - a reasonable chance to make 5S against a minimum hand using MCC. Qxxxx, x, xxx, AKxx. This is the direct 5S type hand.

AKxx, xxxx, KQx, KQ - Using MCC, partner rates to hold: Jxxxx, void, Axxx, Axxx 5S is the right spot. Double to show this hand. If partner turns out to have the wasted heart K with xxxxx of spades, he can convert.

C) AKxx, Axx, Qxx, Qxx - Opposite J9xxx, void, Axxx, Axxx you don't want to play 5S. Pass to show any hand with no clear cut offensive direction. (This would include those 2 in 20 hands where you were dealt KJ2 of hearts instead of Jxx so you do give up the strong suggestion of penalizing in favor of more precisely defining the offensive hand types.)

D) AKx, xxx, AK10xx, Kx - slam is in the picture opposite Qxxxxx, x, xx AQxx so show slam intentions with a pass then a pull.

Anyway, just some thoughts on the subject that seem to make some kind of sense out of a difficult situation. The idea is to tell partner what you should be able to make opposite his minimum holding, then if he has better cards he should be in a position to take reasonable action; the disadvantage is playing 5H doubled on hands where 5S could certainly be made.

Winston

"fought the law"
13-3+1=11tricks
13=total tricks
3=combined 2 shortest suits
+1=assume 22-24 working hcp.
If 25-27 working hcp than assume +2 and 12 tricks.