[000002]

WEST NORTH EAST SOUTH
3♥ * 3♠ * PASS * 4♣

Now , does 4♣ force you?

thanks

and:
WEST NORTH EAST SOUTH
2♠ * 3♥ * PASS * 4♣

same?

thanks

[Fluffy]

Yes it does, because he has an easy pass otherwise.

[000002]

I can't understand it.

His length from 5 to 8,his strength mb 10\11\12\13\14\15...,his major mb 0\1\2, how to discern?

thanks

000002

[helene_t]

Absolutely forcing. Furthermore, I think it's primarely choice of game (i.e. 4♣ suggests tollerance for partner's suit). Something like 6 clubs or 5 very good ones, and 2 spades (only one spade if partner's overcall was a jump. With two spades you would raise).

It can also turn out to be a slam try. In that case, the 4♣-bidder will bid again. So partner assumes a natural gameforce with spade tollerance.

[000002]

I doubt it & i thinking now .......... why?

Anyway , thanks at once is polite

[helene_t]

Why shouldn't it be forcing? Can you have a hand that wants to play 4♣ if partner is minimal, but 5♣ or 4♠ if partner has extra's? Yes, but you can't afford such a luxury. The stronger hands are much more important.

[000002]

thanks

how to bid when u hold an "normally" hand like this:
♠ x
♥ xxx
♦ AQx
♣ AKxxxx

thanks

[helene_t]

I think 4♣ is fine in both cases [sorry, just realize that partner's suit was hearts in the first case. 4♥ then). I would prefer to have one extra spade in the first case but I don't see any alternative.

This post has been edited by helene_t: 2005-August-03, 07:43

[000002]

thanks

Now ,The hand change to :
♠ x
♥ xx
♦ Axxx
♣ AKxxxx
Can he pass 3♠?

thanks. glad to meet u

[helene_t]

Yes, I think I would pass that one in the first case. Not sure if it's correct, though.

[000002]

Thanks

[P_Marlowe]

Hi,

yes 4C is forcing.

The only question is, is it a cue bid, aggreeing the overcalled
suit, or natural, I prefer the cue bid meaning.

If you hold

x
xxx
AQx
AKxxxx

Do you really know, that 4C is better than 3S?

After all 4C you need to get 2 tricks more, that this
statement holds true.
Are you certain, you will acchieve this?

To bid 4C nonforcing, means, you wanna stop on
a dime.

With kind regards
Marlowe

[000002]

THANKS

I think it's most important to seek a game contract after 3♠ overcall . is it a slam?

non-forcing 4♣ VENTURE game, forcing 4♣ lost many game,which u like?

With kind regards
000002

[P_Marlowe]

000002, on Aug 3 2005, 09:51 AM, said:

THANKS

I think it's most important to seek a game contract after 3♠ overcall . is it a slam?

non-forcing 4♣ VENTURE game, forcing 4♣ lost many game,which u like?

With kind regards
000002

Hi,

regarding choice of games and slam exploration,
i.e. cue bid or natural, have a look at

http://www.prairiene...ridge/b_cue.htm

I am not an expert, so my preference should be
meaningless, personnaly I use the default, that
a new suit on the 4 levl is a cue.

With kind regards
Marlowe

[000002]

Thanks

[Fluffy]

you cannot pass a 3 level overcall with 11 HCP, well of course you do, but your partner will hardly like it.

[ochinko]

000002, on Aug 3 2005, 05:51 PM, said:

THANKS

I think it's most important to seek a game contract after 3♠ overcall . is it a slam?

non-forcing 4♣ VENTURE game, forcing 4♣ lost many game,which u like?

With kind regards
000002

I see no merit in a non-forcing 4C. There is the principle of not preempting a preempt from partner. It should be equally valid when opps intervene. Note that you don't steal any bidding space when bidding 4C over 3Sp from opps.

With the hands that you gave as an example all choices are between pass and a game in partner's suit. You are not strong enough for a slam try to bid 4C. Note that:

1. It's easier to make 4M than 5m.

2. When both you and your partner have long suits it's better when the trumps are in the weaker hand, because it could have no outside entries whereas the tricks from high cards in the stronger hand will always be available.

That's why I play that a preempt (especially in a major) sets firmly the trump suit. Whether a new suit from the responder should be natural or a cue-bid is a matter of partnership agreement.

Petko

[000002]

Thanks

Many years ago i saw an article (writen by michaels lawrence? ), he emphasize that 4-LEVEL response(in this case) is non-forcing.

But i'm sry to say:it's too hard to understand by me in that early period.
& i want to seek the reason NOW.

anyone help me?

Thanks

[mikeh]

You and your partner could agree that the 4♣ call in your sequences is non-forcing. By doing so you will once in a while outbid virtually everyone else, who must pass partner's overcall with no support and a long ♣ suit in a weak hand.

But you will lose in the long run.

Why?

Playing 4♣ as non-forcing means that it will pay off only when 4♣ is a better partscore contract than partner's 3 of a major. That is a narrow target at which to aim. You are bidding a level higher, in a lower scoring contract with no assurance that your suit is any better than partner's, and with no assurance of any fit.

On the other hand, playing 4♣ as forcing ensures that you will find any fit that exists, whether it be in partner's suit (it may be long enough that even xx or x will be adequate support), or in ♣ or even in the 4th suit.

It also allows the partnership a better opportunity to explore for slam. Partner, with a good hand and a ♣ fit, can cue-bid their suit.

You have more possible destinations playing 4♣ as forcing.

Of course, you will sometimes hold hands where the non-forcing use would be better, but the same can be said of any approach to the game. If I pick up xxx xx xx xxxxxx, and partner opens 1N, 15-17, I would very much like to bid a natural and non-forcing 2♣. However, experience suggests that using 2♣ as natural and non-forcing is not as effective on the majority of hands as using it as stayman.

BTW, I would play responder's first change of suit below game as natural (and forcing) rather than as a cuebid, for essentially the same reasoning: you need to widen the field of possible contracts far too often to use new suit bids as cuebids supporting partner's suit.

How one plays a change of suit beyond game, in auctions that start higher, is an entirely different topic, with somewhat different considerations.

[flytoox]

The reason it should be forcing is that it is extremely unlikely 4C plays better than 3S. It is one level higher. If you have a weak misfit hand, just pass 3s and pray you can make it. Given LHO's preempt, it is more likely that you have a good hand and want to explore slam possibility. Having 4C as forcng will serve you well.