[bglover]

I just saw a hand something like this:

KJxxx
XX
QJ10xx
x

1st seat opener bid 1H and this person elected not to make a Michels but passed instead, there was a 2h raise passed back to this hand, who then balanced with 2s, passed out making 4.

The reason the hand made 4 was his partner was holding the AK of dimonds and the ace of spades, certainly not enough to keep the bidding going after his partner had only balanced.

Had 2d seater elected to bid his suits early, the double fit may have been located and the game bid.

This brings up a pet peeve of mine...partners who elect passing and coming in later. I have seen this kind of thing happen over and over in my years of playing. By sacrificing the one level, as here (this person could bid 1spd), you often miss decent fit games because partner is at a loss to know your strength after a balancing bid.

I realize this hand is an extreme example of this principle at work, but this practice is very common. I admit, I know very good players who pass with opening strength (or better) in overcall position and I always find these auctions awkward when I play with them.

Are people waiting for their partners to double so they can defend? Are they just watiing for the auction to further develop? Whatever the answer, I find that passing early often leads to poor results. I insist my real-life partners not do this... Online I don't have that luxury.. Thoughts?

[inquiry]

This hand is hardly ruff a 1-SPADE overall. 7 hcp, 1/2 quick trick, no defense. If you overcall 1S on this hand, your partner will never know to raise or not. A michaels cue-bid is obviously a possibility, depending upon the vulnerability and partnership understanding of expected values. Not sure you will find the double fit, unless 2H promises specifically SPADES and DIAMONDS, rather than SPADES and a MINOR. (this is why Robson/Segal suggest you show SPECIFIC suits, rather than a major and minor).

Game made here because of a great double fit, and the ability to find the spade QUEEN (since partner didn't have it). So while my partners say I am way to agressive a bidder on defense, pass with this hand is certainly not a bad bid. In fact, I use Larry Cohen's OBAR bids in this situation, so after 1H-P-2H-P-P, I know partner is not looking at a fair hand with 4-2-3-4 or 3-2-4-4 or 4-1-4-4, etc, because I play that a double there does not show extra values. Also, I know he is not looking at a minor 2 suiter (2NT), nor a good one suiter (3C or 3D). 2S is about just right now.

Ben

[Rado]

Hello Steve and Ben,
The hand shown has too much offence just to pass and hope for the best. There are 4 possible solutions (written in order of my personall priority):
1. Michaels (especially if playing weak or strong)
2. WJ 2Sp (in case more strength required for Michaels
3. 1Sp ( if weak 1st level overcalls are accepted)
4. pass when Vulnerable against Not

When overcalling at level 1st with weak (7-9 pt) hand must have either good suit (min KQ10) or good defense (A+K or similar).
Weak Jump overcall might do the job when playing Michaels with continuous range (therefore the min strenthg fo Michaels is about 8-9 good).
Michaels (weak or strong) gives best chances for reacing game here, provided opps are silent.

Passing first and then balancing (when had possibility to overcall at level 1st) in general shows weak suit and hand just under opening values.

Best Regards, Rado

[the hog]

Very interesting to compare differing bidding philosophies in different parts of the world. No one would pass this here. This is a 1S overcall everyday of the week. If Nv vs vuland playing weak 2 suited overcalls, I would find that bid. I'd like it better over a 1C opening, but hey, beggars can't be choosers.

Totally disagree with Ben when he says that pd will never know whether to raise or not - you raise if you have a fit. We raise with Qxx and some outside doubleton. What harm can happen? If you pass on this in the worst possible case you could be giving up a double game swing.

The reason I find this interesting is because I can see a total difference in approach to bidding in the States and other parts of the world. Most Europeans would bid on this as would Antipodeans and Asians. US players imho from what I have seen, very much have the attitude that bridge is a 2 handed game - lets make sure pd is not put under pressure, I will always have v good values for my bids etc etc. Hence the development of the Roth-Stone school, the development of 2/1, balancing etc etc. Others believe that bridge is a 4 handed game - we have opponents, lets make life difficult for them; get in get out quick. Hence the development of aggressive and more destructive methods eg Polish NT overcall which some of you call "Raptor", aggressive 2 suited openingsetc . Hence also the devpt of systems where it is fine to open light, and the development of methods where it is fine to overcall light. Interesting that these methods are frowned upon in America.

I think we can also see the logical extension of these philosophies in the system regulations which have grown up in respective countries.

I am not saying one method is better or worse than the other, (well I am actually), but I sure as hell now which method is the more fun, and in my view the more profitable.

[inquiry]

I think I am in agreement with Rado on this one.... his option #3 was overcall 1S way down the list after michaels, which I said was a possibility (not vul 100% michaels, vul vs vul depends on what your partner will play you for, and vul versus not vul, pass). 2S is also an option to be considered (his #2).

[Yzerman]

Depending on whether partner is a passed hand, I think this hand should make some "noise" and michaels or some 2 suited action should be taken. I think there is too much risk in passing then balancing for a few reasons (as cited earlier in post);

a) Partner is unlikely to raise with appropriate hand
You will be entering an auction in which opps have already exchanged 1 or more round of bidding
c) Your partner may ultimately double H contract

Although I tend toward the conservative side of bidding and not bidding with bad hands and/or bad suits, the fact that I have the spade suit gives me some comfort in bidding michaels. Partner will not expect much defensively (hence lowering the risk of him/her doubling). Partner will now have better knowledge of what kinds of hands to make game try with (spade fit/fitting spade values and controls). I also have the preempted the opps 1 round of bidding.

Note: Very neat in that this is an ENTIRELY different problem if suits are hearts/diamonds and opps opened 1S.

[bglover]

I appreciate all the input so far but...

My question (comments, whatever) weren't meant to be specific to that hand (it was an extreme example and I said so to start).

My original post was oriented more towards 2d seater passing with NEAR OR OVER OPENING VALUES.

This is where I feel the most pressure is put upon partner-- passing a GOOD HAND in 2d seat and then balancing... I don't like it!

Would love to hear from others, especially those who are prone to using this very strategy (at least one replier I know employs this strategy frequently).

[JRG]

I agree with 2over1.

I prefer to get into the auction right away (my partner tells me I don't do it enough!). However, I prefer to make weakish overcalls with shape; I pass with balanced 12 counts.

Now, I don't like passing with balanced 12 counts (OK, make that a balanced 13 or 14). From what I've seen, few people do; however, bidding on a balanced 13ish seems fraught with danger.

So I'd be interested in some replies that address 2over1's question directly (rather than the example hand which I would ALWAYS bid directly - I'd use Michaels, but I lack judgement ???

[the hog]

Now, I don't like passing with balanced 12 counts (OK, make that a balanced 13 or 14). From what I've seen, few people do; however, bidding on a balanced 13ish seems fraught with danger.

I don't really see what else you can do with a bal 12-15 count and holding length in the opened suit apart from pass. The Italians used to make off-shape takeout Xs, but the current crop no longer seem to. I guess it behooves the player with shape to come into the auction asap

I don't mind doubling on a 4432 with 2 in their suit, but thats about it with balanced shapes.

[mishovnbg]

Bridge ln my opinion is like any other fight - you must use own tricks and counter opp tricks. To bid and how to bid depend of style of opp ( i will accept here that you p can understand any you bid). If they use take out dbl, then is very good to bid, to bid with any reason, to pre-empt... If they use optional dbl you must do sound overcalls or opp often will write you phone number ;D.
Somebody just joke about your partner will not support you, right? Change p if he dont or change system if u cant make weak and limit+ raises.
If you already decide to bid, what to bid depend of many factors, but most interesting for me is level of opp. Against good players weak 2 suiters can help them to find/stop contract and make it near on 52 cards, so less informative overcall/pre-empt is better. Against not so good players is better to give more information to p, he can use it, opps cant.
Misho

[bglover]

Guess this is my week for visiting old topics...

Playing last night with a top player, this again came up. I had the following hand:

KJxx
Qxx
Q10xx
Kx

I passed it (we are playing 2/1, so can't open it).

Bidding as follows: (we vul opps not)


N (me) E S(pd) W

p 1H p 2h
X p 3d 3hh
p p 4d 4h
p p X all pass

4H is off 2 for +300.... but we make 3N. Partner had a 14 count with 5D (ajxxx) and jx of hts (2254 distribution).

By passing at his 1st oppotunity (instead of 2d overcall to start), it is very hard for us to catch up and we got a fairly bad result.

Comments?

[inquiry]

Quote

KJxx
Qxx
Q10xx
Kx

Bidding as follows: (we vul opps not)
N (me) E S(pd) W
p 1H p 2h
X p 3d 3hh
p p 4d 4h
p p X all pass

4H is off 2 for +300.... but we make 3N. Partner had a 14 count with 5D (ajxxx) and jx of hts (2254 distribution).

Comments?

Hi Steve, you go many things wrong in this post and left out a few details. Fitst, you got the hands slightly wrong...
You had Qx of hearts (not 3) and three clubs to king. Your parnter had JTx of hearts, not Jx, and 13 hcp, not 14. You didn't state the vulnerability, which was you WERE and they WERE not. You said 3NT was on, but a heart lead always sets that contract. You said you got a fairly bad result, but in fact +300 is better than you can do on your own on this hand, and you were +1.58 imps. If you bid 3NT you will be down one and lose 7.21 imps.

Now, to the real issue. Should your partner have made a vulnerable overcall holding the hand he actually held? He had....S-A3 H-JT3 D-AJ952 C-QJ5

Never. His suit is not good enough for a 2over1 overcall, especially vulnerable, and even more especially at imps.

Your double was a tad aggressive, but got you back into the picture. Your ideal spot is 3DIAMONDS. 4D would have been likewise down one. Your partner, with only 5Diamonds, overbid the law of total tricks, especially since he had minor suit honors in their suit. If you had 5 diamonds you would habe bid 4D, or if you had a heart void, same thing. It is an intersting hand.

The peoople who made 3NT didn't face an opening 1H bid on Qxx Axxxx Kxx xx and got a club opening lead at trick one...that WOULD not have happened at you table.

Ben

[bglover]

He he i wrote that early in morning... i may have screwed the hand up... I did state the vul tho.