[csdenmark]

coyot, on Aug 2 2005, 10:26 AM, said:

True, it is a sane thing to ask opps what system do they play, IF it helps me in any way.

It is always wise to guard your own interests. Simply put your query for opps. into your own pre-alert. Be sure you always play according to convention card yourself ensuring you that you are not the one to be blamed.

I happened to see yesterday that ACBL tourney's are penalizing players with no convention card posted. That's serious and playing those tourney's your problems are over.

[the hog]

Oh Please!
I have played a bit on BBO. There are many players from all sorts of countries who don't alert. There are a few things to bear in mind -
* Despite what some think, sayc is NOT the lingua franca of bbo. This is, (thankfully), an international site.
* Alerting rules vary from country to country.
* I would suspect, but have no way of proving, that most who play on BBO are not tournament players and perhaps are not used to alerting.

Chill out guys. Does it really matter? Are you playing for international selection? Are you playing for sheep stations? Does it hurt to ask? Does everyone in the world even speak English?

Quite frankly I find Candybar's post above offensive. Candybar, would you be annoyed if I picked you up for not alerting Stayman? You should be. In my country it is alertable!

Ron. (Who alerts Stayman!)

[coyot]

The_Hog, on Aug 2 2005, 04:19 AM, said:

Oh Please!
I have played a bit on BBO. There are many players from all sorts of countries who don't alert. There are a few things to bear in mind -
* Despite what some think, sayc is NOT the lingua franca of bbo. This is, (thankfully), an international site.
* Alerting rules vary from country to country.
* I would suspect, but have no way of proving, that most who play on BBO are not tournament players and perhaps are not used to alerting.

Chill out guys. Does it really matter? Are you playing for international selection? Are you playing for sheep stations? Does it hurt to ask? Does everyone in the world even speak English?

Quite frankly I find Candybar's post above offensive. Candybar, would you be annoyed if I picked you up for not alerting Stayman? You should be. In my country it is alertable!

Ron. (Who alerts Stayman!)

Of course it matters.

I mean, if I wanted to kill time clicking on cards, I would play Solitaire, not bridge!

I don't want to punish players who do not alert. I want to educate them so that they will alert! And, yes, I do alert Stayman on BBO .

I agree that people might not be used to alerting, but unless you want to spend most of your time on bbo filling "explain call" boxes, this is the only way!

And, yes, it does hurt to ask. It simply wastes time, both my and their. It is much more efficient if you stick to alerting, because then, absence of alert tells the opponents "this bid is natural, or at least I think so".

Alerting is the easiest (and maybe the only feasible) way how to make bridge enjoyable. The other options are a) asking everytime what a bid means everyone playing the same system.

I think that we need both educated players (that will be told WHY it is important to alert) AND educated TDs AND tools that will allow the TDs to hand penalties to those players that do not accomodate.

Should the not-alerting-is-ok policy prevail, I quit.

[candybar]

coyot is right, the point is not to punish alert offenders, but to achieve full compliance.

One thing that would make it MUCH easier to comply with alert requirements is to add a simple pulldown list to the Alert explanation box when bidding. Then allow players to add phrases to the pulldown list (stored on their computer), which can be selected when making an alertable bid.

With this, I could store explanations for just about every bid that might be unknown to anyone, and easily select the explanation.

The current system, where I have to type in the explanation every time, is far too cumbersome to encourage its use. Make it easy to alert/explain, and I'll bet the compliance skyrockets.

[jillybean]

candybar, on Aug 2 2005, 07:53 AM, said:

The current system, where I have to type in the explanation every time, is far too cumbersome to encourage its use.  Make it easy to alert/explain, and I'll bet the compliance skyrockets.

The existing system is adequate for the majority of alerts and explanations. If you are using a complex system that takes a line or two to fully disclose then use cut and paste chat to opps or use OKscript to automate it fully.

The tools are there, use them. The onus is on the players to alert bids not blame the system because there is too much to type.

[sceptic]

I think that a polish club (I club bid) should not be alerted as it is their standard and I think that it slows the game down more than people nipping off to make a coffee, (it is heck of a bid to type out in full)

does it hurt to read polish club and see what it is anyway, so you know, do you know effective defence against it anyway???

Do you alert your sayc 1 club bid?????? surely that is alertable or do you only worry about rules in your country and not take into account they may be in the same position as you ???, they may not even speak your language

alert in tourneys with full rules ok (maybe you can expect that, if stated), in the main lobby why does it matter, and why do people cite the alert structure from their country to someone from another country.

I have seen many team games set up in a few minutes and they cant have enough time to discuss their own system properly so, why shoud they give you more info than they give their pards?????

the main lobby has a relaxed informal attitude, lets keep it like that.

bridge is only a game, unless your Fred and every little detail matters as they play at such a high level, I think I have been told that concentrate on the basics and leave fancy conventions alone, I think the same applies to the guiding rules of bridge, half the people that whine about non alerts, cant even play the cards properly.

They would be better of improving declarer play or defence than worrying about UI when they are not good enough to take advantage of it, to many bueracrats about for my liking.

why not read their cc if they have one, or do you expect them to tell you every thing just for a few hands (anything under 12 hands is for fun) keep it like that.

non disclosure in this environment stinks of sour grapes

(this is my own personal view and not BBO policy) yada yada yada, if you disagree with it, take note I disagree with your views in this enviroment


p.s. if you don't like it, why not form a commitee and make a set of cyber land bridge rules that encompass, language barriers and all systems

from what I have seen even the experts can't agree on everything

[csdenmark]

coyot, on Aug 2 2005, 02:40 PM, said:

I want to educate them so that they will alert!

Please don't try to educate me. I am not interested in the american way!

If you really want to teach somebody something - try to explain the americans what it means to go international.

[inquiry]

csdenmark, on Aug 2 2005, 12:12 PM, said:

coyot, on Aug 2 2005, 02:40 PM, said:

I want to educate them so that they will alert!

Please don't try to educate me. I am not interested in the american way!

If you really want to teach somebody something - try to explain the americans what it means to go international.

Very narrow minded of you to think Coyot is an american. We do have a coyote which is wolf like animal, but what about coyot's post or manner makes you think he (or she) is an american?

This is definitely not a spelling or word I would contribute to an American. In fact, if you look Coyot (without the final e) on line, you find it more associated with bulgaria and the Czech Republic. And if you look up Coyot and bridge (MSN search), only two relative post show up, both from the Czech Republic.

IF this board allowed flame wars, I would have something to say about your presumptions and prejudice that your post show. As it is, I will leave it at this. Maybe Coyot is from an American, but there is no way for you or I to know.

As for Coyot, he (or she) is clearly more correct. On BBO (forget local rules), the rule is to ALERT when there is any doubt that your opponents will understand the meaning of your bid. It is written into the rules of the site. Forget american rules, forget european rules, for get world bridge federation rules. Those are the BBO rules....

You can read the BBO rules on ALERTS in the bridge library on the game site under the file entitled "rules of this site". But one sentence summarizes if very well, and puts and end to this type of discussion, that sentence reads...

If you have ANY doubt as to whether a bid should be alerted or not, it is approrpriate to alert it

Please READ the BBO rules (not american rules) on ALERTING before you pontificate on the American way of doing things. Thank you.

[inquiry]

BTW... there is a coyot on BBO (doesn't mean same coyot as posting here, but probably is), and that coyot flys the Czech Republic flag.

[csdenmark]

inquiry, on Aug 2 2005, 07:06 PM, said:

Very narrow minded of you to think Coyot is an american.

Ben I wrote Coyot as an american because I thought I was able to remember he had informed he lived in western USA - but I may be wrong on that.

I have now tried to find out - my only source of information is time-setting. From that it looks like 7 hours behind CET which means Chicago time. Whether correct or not I certainly don't know. Mexico, Bolivia etc. will be options too.

[pigpenz]

csdenmark, on Aug 2 2005, 01:15 PM, said:

means Chicago time. Whether correct or not I certainly don't know. Mexico, Bolivia etc. will be options too.

Dont forget the south pole

[inquiry]

csdenmark, on Aug 2 2005, 02:15 PM, said:

inquiry, on Aug 2 2005, 07:06 PM, said:

Very narrow minded of you to think Coyot is an american.

Ben I wrote Coyot as an american because I thought I was able to remember he had informed he lived in western USA - but I may be wrong on that.

Good enough. But you might want to check this post in a thread you posted in several times I believe, where Coyot talks about alterting procedures in Czech Republic:

http://forums.bridgebase.com/index.php?sho...indpost&p=81162

[csdenmark]

inquiry, on Aug 2 2005, 11:00 PM, said:

Coyot talks about alterting procedures in Czech Republic

Czech does not look right Ben. I have checked all postings. Several references to SA and as far as I know Czech is Precision-land. The comments about poles(neighbours?) looks not so friendly.

I stop speculations here. I think it will be up to the person himself to inform.

-----------------------------------------------

What I think is much more interesting is simply why this intense debate in several threads? I have noticed no recent problems which can explain this. Where I play we never have problems and those tables I kibitz there seems no problems either. ACBL tourneys seems to have solved their possible problems too - so I assume no problems in tournament area either.

So why this intense debate and why now?

[the hog]

About the last thing I want to do is to get involved in a slanging war with anyone, but to say "I want to educate them so that they will alert! " is an incredibly arrogant comment. Just who are these "they" whom you wish to educate. Did you even read my post? I said that I would suspect that half the people who play on line do not play ftf regularly if at all and simply log on for a bit of fun. You won't educate them and its not your responsibility or right to do so.

Chill out! When I started playing seriously I called the director on anyone who imo commited infractions eg failure to alert, playing weasel over NT etc etc. Later I came to the conclusion that all this was a waste of time. These lols weren't going to change and I was making the game unpleasant for all concerned. It didn't matter because I was going to beat them anyway.

Coyot and Candybar you could both do worse than to read Wayne's post - Sceptic - and take note of the sensible comments he makes.

[candybar]

Since the Hog asks me to note Sceptic's post, I'll add a few comments on it.

Quote

I think that a polish club (I club bid) should not be alerted as it is their standard and I think that it slows the game down more than people nipping off to make a coffee, (it is heck of a bid to type out in full)

1. If polish club is that hard to explain, then it is certainly unusual enough to alert and give full disclosure to unsuspecting opponents.
2. Whether it is Polish standard or not is irrelevant. It is NOT BBO standard.

Quote

does it hurt to read polish club and see what it is anyway, so you know

Obviously not, a worthwhile thing to do, but that still does not eliminate the need to alert the opponents what you are playing. I know multi 2D also, but that does not mean I can play it without alerting.

Quote

Do you alert your sayc 1 club bid?????? surely that is alertable or do you only worry about rules in your country and not take into account they may be in the same position as you

The BBO standard is the one that matters. Country rules are irrelevant.

Quote

alert in tourneys with full rules ok (maybe you can expect that, if stated)

That is what this discussion is about, alerting in tournaments, where people DO care about the results.

Quote

why do people cite the alert structure from their country to someone from another country

It has nothing to do with countries. The rule on BBO is that you alert bids which the opponents may not know, expect, understand, etc. The BBO standard systems are well defined, and give the 'expected' meanings of bids. If that happens to be similar to some particular country, it's irrelevant.

Quote

I have seen many team games set up in a few minutes and they cant have enough time to discuss their own system properly ...

Bridge is a partnership game. If some people want to play it solo style, that's up to them, but many of us prefer to play it with the structure of partnerships and bidding and play agreements. Partnership is what makes it a great game.

Quote

bridge is only a game, unless your Fred and every little detail matters as they play at such a high level

Do you think Fred or anyone else got to a high level by ignoring the Laws of the game? Some of us aspire to higher levels, may never get there, but would still like to play serious bridge, not some crap shoot with opponents who refuse to comply with the same rules we ethically follow.

Quote

half the people that whine about non alerts, cant even play the cards properly

It's hard to play the cards well when the opponents have unethically misled you about the meanings of their bids or signals.

Quote

do you expect them to tell you every thing just for a few hands

Yes, because the rules require it, even for 1 hand.

Quote

non disclosure in this environment stinks of sour grapes

I agree 100%. Non disclosure is a way of gaining an advantage over opponents that you cannot beat fairly.

Bridge is a game, and games have rules. Players who do not follow the rules are not playing the game, they are doing something else entirely. Personally, I like bridge, and I follow the rules. All I ask is that others do the same. If you don't want to follow the rules, you are not playing bridge, and do not belong on BBO or any other BRIDGE game site or club.

[the hog]

QUOTE
Do you alert your sayc 1 club bid?????? surely that is alertable or do you only worry about rules in your country and not take into account they may be in the same position as you


The BBO standard is the one that matters. Country rules are irrelevant.


Who says that sayc/BBO standard is the lingua franca. Where is this enshrined as the Holy Grail? If I ever play you and you don't alert your 3 card C opening, consider yourself reported for non disclosure. Again you are forgetting, or perhaps chosing to ignore that this is an international site.

[epeeist]

One should comply with what is mandated (by BBO, tournament, whatever).

Going beyond that, one should try -- I try (try, I'm sure I fail sometimes) -- to gauge what should/shouldn't be alerted by one's opponents' profiles and one's (and one's partner's) own profiles.

If my opponents' profiles both say "2/1 trns" etc., I don't bother alerting Stayman, or transfer bids over 1NT opening by my partner. Maybe I should, but I generally don't bother. If one of my opponent's profiles said e.g. "novice" and "wj2005" or something (or either is non-SAYC/2over1), I try to remember to alert Stayman, transfer bids over 1NT, etc.

If my p and I have agreed systems on or whatever, then I would alert if I was bidding over my p's 1NT overcall of LHO bid, of course, no matter what the profiles were.

If my p's profile says "Txs transfers" and I, in a previous round, agreed NOT to use Texas transfers, if I jump to e.g. 4♥ over p's 1NT, I will alert it as "natural" or "to play" or whatever. Ethically, I probably have no need to do so since I would only need to alert if it WAS a transfer. But I prefer to define the meaning (natural) in advance of possibly being asked.

As others have noted ad nauseam (not necessarily in this thread), UNLIKE in f2f games, alerting on BBO provides no UI to one's P. So no ethical objection to unnecessary alerting/explaining (so long as one is accurate, not misleading to opponents).

[Elianna]

candybar, on Aug 2 2005, 06:36 PM, said:

Quote

I think that a polish club (I club bid) should not be alerted as it is their standard and I think that it slows the game down more than people nipping off to make a coffee, (it is heck of a bid to type out in full)

1. If polish club is that hard to explain, then it is certainly unusual enough to alert and give full disclosure to unsuspecting opponents.
2. Whether it is Polish standard or not is irrelevant. It is NOT BBO standard.

Not only that, but there are different versions of Polish Club. Am I expected to know all and to guess correctly which ones the opps are using?

[coyot]

csdenmark, on Aug 2 2005, 11:12 AM, said:

coyot, on Aug 2 2005, 02:40 PM, said:

I want to educate them so that they will alert!

Please don't try to educate me. I am not interested in the american way!

If you really want to teach somebody something - try to explain the americans what it means to go international.

A nice and completely wrong assumption, Claus. I am not american and I don't think that educating people to follow WBF rules is "the american way".

[coyot]

Unless somebody comes up with BBO standard, the ONLY rules that we can safely adopt are WBF rules.

Under those rules, SAYC better minor IS alertable. Under ANY rules (maybe with the exception of Poland, not sure), 1♣ in Polish Club IS alertable.

sceptic:
1) Yes, I do alert better minor openers
2) I don't care what is the standard for alerting in Poland. With full respect to Polish players, unless they're playing on their home turf under their country rules, I will want them to alert their [1CL] opener. I WILL ask for adjusts in tournaments if the alert absence could cause any damage. And once BBO allows procedural penalties, I will report them to TDs for not adhering to the rules.
3) I don't expect opps to TELL me everything for a few boards unless I ask, but I DO expect them to use alert button to let me know that there is something I could be interested in.

I will alert my bids no matter what opps profiles say, no matter what our profiles say.
I will alert my bids no matter what my CC says. The rules say so and following those rules shows respect for opponents.

The only exceptions would be, in MBC, when both sides announce the system they play and it happens to be the same system (or very similar).

Epeeist: If you happen to assume (from their profiles) that opps play SA2/1 and later discover that they were playing precision, what will you do? Will you just think "oh, my bad, I should have not made that assumptions"? Will you report them to abuse for "misleading you"? (And will you report them to abuse, if they alerted their 1♣ opening?)