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Notrump ranges?

#1 User is offline   svengolly 

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Posted 2026-November-08, 22:06

What is the difference between opening 3N and opening 2 clubs then rebidding 3N? As near as I can tell from searching, they show the same range of 25-27 HCP. The GIB convention card has 3N marked as 25-27 while the 2C range is undocumented but standard.
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#2 User is offline   lorserker 

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Posted Yesterday, 03:22

opening 3N is 25-27

2C - 2D - 2N is 22-24
2C - 2D - 3N is 25-27
2C - 2D - 4N is 28-30

#3 User is offline   pescetom 

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Posted Yesterday, 03:33

 lorserker, on 2026-November-09, 03:22, said:

opening 3N is 25-27

2C - 2D - 2N is 22-24
2C - 2D - 3N is 25-27
2C - 2D - 4N is 28-30

Isn't this duplication and use of wider range than 2N rather silly?

Why not:
2N is 20-21
2C - 2D - 2N is 22-23
3N is 24-25
2C - 2D - 3N is 26-27
4N is 28-29
2C - 2D - 4N is 30-31
?
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#4 User is offline   mw64ahw 

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Posted Yesterday, 04:57

Perhaps 3N is balanced 25-27 while the alternative shows 9 playing tricks not balanced.
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#5 User is offline   RD350LC 

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Posted Yesterday, 09:21

View Postlorserker, on 2026-November-09, 03:22, said:

opening 3N is 25-27

2C - 2D - 2N is 22-24
2C - 2D - 3N is 25-27
2C - 2D - 4N is 28-30



I agree with these ranges. The 3NT opening bid can be used for another purpose. A "gambling" 3NT opener is popular, and I have other purposes for that opening bid.
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#6 User is offline   Joe_Old 

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Posted Yesterday, 09:29

Under "NT Openings" the "BBO Advanced (2/1=GF)"CC has:

"3NT= Solid minor no outside A/K"

GIB 2/1 has 3NT=25/27. I believe that the BBO Advanced definition is the more common treatment because it avoids this duplication, and especially because it saves a little room for bidding (it allows Responder to show a positive response after a 2C Opening).
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#7 User is offline   pescetom 

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Posted Today, 07:03

I consider Gambling 3NT a poor and low frequency convention and would rather use both 3NT and 2C 3NT as no trump openings, particularly if not playing Birthright to gain more openings.

But what I really dislike about the current scheme is not the duplication but the 3 point ranges: 22 and 24 are very different beasts.
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#8 User is offline   jillybean 

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Posted Today, 07:23

This is the Bot forum, you play what they play,

I would otherwise jump on the don’t play gambling 3nt bandwagon.
“It is not because things are difficult that we do not dare, it is because we do not dare that they are difficult.”
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#9 User is offline   pescetom 

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Posted Today, 08:44

 jillybean, on 2026-November-10, 07:23, said:

This is the Bot forum, you play what they play,

I would otherwise jump on the don’t play gambling 3nt bandwagon.

But the Bot plays 3NT as 25-27, not as Gambling.
It's only the 'BBO Advanced' CC which would have it be Gambling, which is neither here nor there as far as the Bot is concerned.
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#10 User is offline   jillybean 

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Posted Today, 08:49

I concur. So why is G3NT being discussed here?
“It is not because things are difficult that we do not dare, it is because we do not dare that they are difficult.”
Bridge should be fun!
SHAPE!
"And no matter what methods you play, it is essential, for anyone aspiring to learn to be a good player, to learn the importance of bidding shape properly." (MH)
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#11 User is offline   pescetom 

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Posted Today, 08:51

 jillybean, on 2026-November-10, 08:49, said:

I concur. So why is G3NT being discussed here?


Ask Joe_old and the others who brought it up :)
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#12 User is offline   JJE 0 

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Posted Today, 09:00

View Postpescetom, on 2026-November-09, 03:33, said:

Isn't this duplication and use of wider range than 2N rather silly?

Why not:
2N is 20-21
2C - 2D - 2N is 22-23
3N is 24-25
2C - 2D - 3N is 26-27
2C - 2D - 4N is 28-29
?


I prefer this set of ranges but it's hard for me to find other players who like it (or robots) :)
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#13 User is offline   Joe_Old 

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Posted Today, 10:46

View Postpescetom, on 2026-November-10, 08:51, said:

Ask Joe_old and the others who brought it up :)


Just more proof that GIB is poorly thought out and executed. Why give a bot, who lacks judgment, choices? I've never seen discussion regarding how the bot distinguishes between opening 3NT (with a balanced 25/27) and 2C, assuming the programmers gave the bot a set of rules in the first place.

I agree the discussion about the virtues, or lack, of Gambling 3Nt belongs elsewhere.
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#14 User is offline   svengolly 

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Posted Today, 12:25

All: I was trying to determine what the GIBBO bots actually play and if there's a difference between 2C - 2D - 3N and opening 3N. Seems to me that discussions about what they should play or what you personally play are irrelevant or wishful thinking.
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#15 User is offline   pescetom 

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Posted Today, 13:20

View Postsvengolly, on 2026-November-10, 12:25, said:

All: I was trying to determine what the GIBBO bots actually play and if there's a difference between 2C - 2D - 3N and opening 3N. Seems to me that discussions about what they should play or what you personally play are irrelevant or wishful thinking.

You were successful in determining what the bots actually play and that alas there is no difference.
I obstinately hope that discussions about what they should play in a discussion where the official BBO bug fixer is present might lead to something :)
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