[jillybean]

pescetom, on 2026-September-02, 08:05, said:

1D-1H
2D-2S
is not game forcing?

I would probably have bid 2C like the rest of field, so I'm just playing devil's advocate here. But I do have some sympathy for 1H.

I suspect it is linked to another issue nobody mentioned yet, probably because MP was specified: do we want to play in 3NT with a 0-6 and uncertain communication, or 5C if a fit emerges, or a moysian 4M?

BTW, it's been tomorrow for some time now

2♠ is GF. We’ve already reached the 3-level and have misdescribed our hand.

I'll go and look for that play problem.

[P_Marlowe]

pescetom, on 2026-September-02, 06:13, said:

Yes I was a bit surprised more people here did not prefer 1H, given the feeble clubs and missing diamonds: although in our field most chose 2C like here (and everyone considers it 100% game forcing).
For North, 1D-1H;2D denies a four card major.
How do you continue over that?

2D showes 6+ diamonds, denies something like 16+, denies 4 cards in the majors, and
I would also assume, that it denies 4 clubs, in short we have at best a combined 30-32,
at best a 5-3 fit in clubs (if we have a 5-4 fit in clubs, opener will have min,
given that we hold nothing in clubs it would also look strange to supress a reasonable
4 carder)

I bid 3NT, and be done with the auction, if partner bids on, he will know, that I have
at most 2- diamonds.

[P_Marlowe]

mike777, on 2026-September-02, 08:14, said:

I would not go as far as to say the two diamonds rebid denies a four card major.
For example give opener a long strong D suit and 4 tiny spades.

I would say it often does.
<snip>

Majors rule.

Unless you have a way of showing 5/4 unlimited strength over 1D at once, 1S in the seq.

1D - 1H
1S

with 6-4 is obv., the bid showes usually 5+ diamonds and 4+ spades, (4441 is possible)
suit strength does not matter, obv. I prefer 1NT with a bal. hand, by passing a 4 carder.
If you have 7 diamonds and a 4 card spade suit, I would be fine with 2D, so technically
even for me, 2D does not deny a 4 card spade suit, although I will never find out the 4 carder,
except in rare cases.

And why the suit strength matters with openers 2nd bid, but plays no role with responders 1st bid
is beyond me.
I like to show shape, but I also like to show things, that interest partner most of the time,
and most of the time p is inerested in a major suit fit, and not in a minor suit 6 carder.

Majors rule.

I could also add, that 1H leaves the most room, 2C burns a whole level.

[P_Marlowe]

pescetom, on 2026-September-02, 08:05, said:

1D-1H
2D-2S
is not game forcing?

I would probably have bid 2C like the rest of field, so I'm just playing devil's advocate here. But I do have some sympathy for 1H.

I suspect it is linked to another issue nobody mentioned yet, probably because MP was specified: do we want to play in 3NT with a 0-6 and uncertain communication, or 5C if a fit emerges, or a moysian 4M?

BTW, it's been tomorrow for some time now

I was told that the minor suit game was called 3NT, espescially playing MP.
Playing 4-3 fits is ok, but it is quite likely, we have to trump with the strong 4 card suit,
not the best setup for playing 4-3.

The main reason, they all want to find 6C.

I end up in 3NT with both auctions in 2 bidding rounds.
If I had bid 1H, my 3NT bid would be more confident, that I am not missing anything.

[WasWinM]

jillybean, on 2026-September-01, 11:13, said:

Yes, 2♣gf

To be honest, I don't know if 2M/2C will be a shape or a stopper, we seem to be heading for a stall in 3nt

Your preoccupation with bidding stoppers puzzles me. The only time I ever ran across stopper asks was when I first was in Santa Barbara for college but in reality was majoring in duplicate bridge at the San Roque Bridge Club. Max Hardy had recently published his book on 2/1, and although I couldn't afford it, I had plenty of help being told what was in it, LoL. If I recall correctly, one aspect was a partial stopper ask. I think like most new systems, that wasn't thought out all that well and was added as a well, we can do this with it, kind of bid. The only other time I ran into stopper was in inverted minors, which I still think is a wasted use of space.

Maybe if you could simply eliminate stopper showing/asking bids (and thoughts) from your arsenal for a while it might help your bidding overall? Just a thought.

[jillybean]

You're not the first one to say this. This is what we were taught, along with having all suits stopped and no doubletons for a 1NT opening - and heaven knows what else!
When you are new to bridge, your teacher is a god. Off you go to play at the club, and no one corrects you. Unless you are fortunate enough to be picked up by an expert, you are exposed only to other players' favorite convention names and "rules", nothing more.

I will not mention stoppers again

edit:
In my experience, there's BBO Forums bridge and then, at the non WC levels, the rest of it.

A recent auction, against an experienced player
2N:3♦
3♥:4♣
4♦ and so on to 6♥

My hand: Q85, AQJ753, 865, 5

Opening leader, holding ♣AKJxx was quite miffed when they led a spade, adamant that 4 clubs had to be a void.

There are just so many methods and misconceptions out there—everyone thinks they are right.

[pescetom]

 jillybean, on 2026-September-02, 09:11, said:

2♠ is GF. We’ve already reached the 3-level and have misdescribed our hand.

GF is GF. Partner will rebid 3C, now we bid 3NT and our task is done. We are Responder with game going strength, no sacred duty to describe our hand beyond what is useful to determine the best contract. Or so the devil's advocate in me would claim

 jillybean, on 2026-September-02, 09:11, said:

I'll go and look for that play problem.

In this same I/A forum, "Who is walking whom".

[jillybean]

I thought bridge was meant to be fun.

[pescetom]

 jillybean, on 2026-September-02, 10:35, said:

You're not the first one to say this. This is what we were taught, along with having all suits stopped and no doubletons for a 1NT opening - and heaven knows what else!
When you are new to bridge, your teacher is a god. Off you go to play at the club, and no one corrects you. Unless you are fortunate enough to be picked up by an expert, you are exposed only to other players' favorite convention names and "rules", nothing more.

I will not mention stoppers again

I think stopper ask is another of those older ideas that is dying off more slowly in some countries/regions than others, like 1m Opener rebidding 1M rather than NT when balanced. It still has a role in the 13 year old system I play, and indeed was instrumental in what happened on this board.

I do think the limited use my system makes of stopper ask is fairly sensible however: it's not as if the fourth suit in a GF context could do anything much more useful that comes to mind. Maybe this pendulum has not decided where to stop yet.

[mike777]

 P_Marlowe, on 2026-September-02, 09:48, said:

Majors rule.

Unless you have a way of showing 5/4 unlimited strength over 1D at once, 1S in the seq.

1D - 1H
1S

with 6-4 is obv., the bid showes usually 5+ diamonds and 4+ spades, (4441 is possible)
suit strength does not matter, obv. I prefer 1NT with a bal. hand, by passing a 4 carder.
If you have 7 diamonds and a 4 card spade suit, I would be fine with 2D, so technically
even for me, 2D does not deny a 4 card spade suit, although I will never find out the 4 carder,
except in rare cases.

And why the suit strength matters with openers 2nd bid, but plays no role with responders 1st bid
is beyond me.
I like to show shape, but I also like to show things, that interest partner most of the time,
and most of the time p is inerested in a major suit fit, and not in a minor suit 6 carder.

Majors rule.

I could also add, that 1H leaves the most room, 2C burns a whole level.

We disagree on your main point.
Majors don't rule

That changes everything...
--------------
After 1D-1H-1S then:
2S=weakish or
XYZ auctions kicks in so
2C=start of inv. or sign off in D.
2D=start of gf
3S= very strong slam interest (rare)

[mikeh]

P_Marlowe, on 2026-September-02, 09:48, said:

Majors rule.

Unless you have a way of showing 5/4 unlimited strength over 1D at once, 1S in the seq.

1D - 1H
1S

with 6-4 is obv., the bid showes usually 5+ diamonds and 4+ spades, (4441 is possible)
suit strength does not matter, obv. I prefer 1NT with a bal. hand, by passing a 4 carder.
If you have 7 diamonds and a 4 card spade suit, I would be fine with 2D, so technically
even for me, 2D does not deny a 4 card spade suit, although I will never find out the 4 carder,
except in rare cases.

And why the suit strength matters with openers 2nd bid, but plays no role with responders 1st bid
is beyond me.
I like to show shape, but I also like to show things, that interest partner most of the time,
and most of the time p is inerested in a major suit fit, and not in a minor suit 6 carder.

Majors rule.

I could also add, that 1H leaves the most room, 2C burns a whole level.

The main advantage of 2C is that it simplifies the rest of the auction. Partner knows we’re in a gf auction and nobody who knows anything about the game will miss a 4=4 major fit if we have one. For example, 1D 2C 2D 2H 2S would, for me, show 4 spades. Many would bid 2S over 2C even with a horrible minimum, but the point is that sensible bidding will never miss a 4=4 fit.

The downside of 2C is that we really don’t want to suggest clubs as a trump suit unless partner was showing clubs over 1D 1H. But say he does. 1D 1H 2C. We have to bid 2S as FSF. It may work out but partner will almost never believe we have 5 clubs and, if he does, he’ll be sure we have 5+ hearts. More to the point, our 2S bid may endplay him in the auction. What is he to do with, say, xx xx AQxxx AKxx? Or xx Jx AKJxx QJxx? The auction is uncomfortably high at 2S and partner has no idea about your hand other than that you have 4+ hearts and game values.

[mike777]

 WasWinM, on 2026-September-02, 10:07, said:

Your preoccupation with bidding stoppers puzzles me. The only time I ever ran across stopper asks was when I first was in Santa Barbara for college but in reality was majoring in duplicate bridge at the San Roque Bridge Club. Max Hardy had recently published his book on 2/1, and although I couldn't afford it, I had plenty of help being told what was in it, LoL. If I recall correctly, one aspect was a partial stopper ask. I think like most new systems, that wasn't thought out all that well and was added as a well, we can do this with it, kind of bid. The only other time I ran into stopper was in inverted minors, which I still think is a wasted use of space.

Maybe if you could simply eliminate stopper showing/asking bids (and thoughts) from your arsenal for a while it might help your bidding overall? Just a thought.

This.

[thepossum]

I'm very late to this
I think my first bid was 1H natural and hope for a major fit. I am assuming there isn't one. But I am no expert but it seems simpler. Now reading the thread
Edit am I permitted 2 spades reverse over 2 diamonnds. I am starting to doubt where we are headed. Am I being ambitious considering a 7 card major fit. 2NT given the clubs. At least we have a stopper:)

Our moon was spectacular last night