[pbartle]

Thanks all for your insights!

[bluenikki]

P_Marlowe, on 2026-August-20, 11:25, said:

Mike777 summarized the meaning of 2NT, what he wrote followes from the options not taken.

"with a minimum hand and stoppers in both unbid suits, bid 2NT"

Completely in contradiction to mike777.

I have never seen his recommendation in print. BBF or any other forum doesnt count. Neither does a column in a magazine.

Don't get me wrong; it might be the best way to play. But if it is not in print, you can't rely on a stranger knowing it.

[P_Marlowe]

bluenikki, on 2026-August-20, 20:23, said:

"with a minimum hand and stoppers in both unbid suits, bid 2NT"
<snip>

I may have missed this post, but the post I was refering to, has something along the
lines "nothing about stoppers" in it.

I also dont think, that you have the room to show the major suit length and the
stopper sitiuation, ..., I guess if you drop the min / max inquiry, you could get
it in, not sure.

[bluenikki]

P_Marlowe, on 2026-August-21, 00:32, said:

I may have missed this post, but the post I was refering to, has something along the
lines "nothing about stoppers" in it.

I also dont think, that you have the room to show the major suit length and the
stopper sitiuation, ..., I guess if you drop the min / max inquiry, you could get
it in, not sure.

The quotation was from Wikipedia. Again, saying the opposite of mike777.

[jillybean]

bluenikki, on 2026-August-21, 04:46, said:

The quotation was from Wikipedia. Again, saying the opposite of mike777.

which one is older and wiser?

[bluenikki]

jillybean, on 2026-August-21, 08:35, said:

which one is older and wiser?

The issue isn't which version is best. It's which version a new partner is likely to assume.

[mycroft]

For the OP: "bid partner's suit, bid your 4 card major (hearts, unless you "bypass"), or a 5-card minor, or 2D (over 2C)/2NT (over 2D). In that order." will get you through life until you're in a regular partnership where you have time and system space to have the discussions. From a "should I bid it" perspective, 90% of the time you don't know both "where" and "how high" you want to play, you bid NMF (level simple exceptions are "2NT is NAT INV" (and announces no possible major fit), "GF two-suiters" (5=5 at least, unless interested in slam; remember you need a note from your mother to bid 5 of a minor at matchpoints) and "all I care about is how many aces I'm losing". Either you'll get the answer you need to know, or you'll be able to "ask the right question" without getting passed (because if passing below game was allowed, you would have made a NF call last round).

For the discussion, which even for here got way advanced way quickly:

The argument about "with both, which has priority" (and there are at least three answers - "responder's suit/4cOM/hearts" - which all have advantages) is simply so that a) partnership is on the same page, and b) responder knows what hand they "have to show after in case".

I have also heard the argument "2NT denies the invitation". I don't like it (although there isn't a good solution without 2-way) as it seriously compresses slam auctions that had to start with "only way to force" when opener jumps to 3NT.

If you're looking for something written down in bridge from the last 30 years, good luck. It's all in somebody's notes somewhere, or if you're really lucky, in a Seagram book. Otherwise, there are four of them and they contradict each other - if you're lucky; if not, they don't exist. Examples: XYZ itself (it's only in the last 5 years I've been able to find *anything* that wasn't "well, here's what we play" on a BW thread), my several discussions on "when does G/B 2NT apply?" Frankly, a lot of the "this is how it is played" Just Is people like mike777 (or bluenikki, or P_Marlowe, or me) saying it on these forums or the other ones. Which makes it hard to decide on which of the "four contradicting patterns" we should think of playing - because "it's obvious this is the only way that makes sense, I don't need to show (know) my reasons". We no longer have a Goren to "settle the Bridge Arguments" (heh, even then, I preferred Scheinwold, both at the "5 weeks" and the "How to play" levels. He just explains so much better than "Thou Shalt" Goren.

[jillybean]

bluenikki, on 2026-August-21, 11:04, said:

The issue isn't which version is best. It's which version a new partner is likely to assume.

Without discussion? You make a bid and hope for the best.

[bluenikki]

mycroft, on 2026-August-21, 11:47, said:

If you're looking for something written down in bridge from the last 30 years, good luck. It's all in somebody's notes somewhere, or if you're really lucky, in a Seagram book. Otherwise, there are four of them and they contradict each other - if you're lucky; if not, they don't exist. Examples: XYZ itself (it's only in the last 5 years I've been able to find *anything* that wasn't "well, here's what we play" on a BW thread), my several discussions on "when does G/B 2NT apply?" Frankly, a lot of the "this is how it is played" Just Is people like mike777 (or bluenikki, or P_Marlowe, or me) saying it on these forums or the other ones. Which makes it hard to decide on which of the "four contradicting patterns" we should think of playing - because "it's obvious this is the only way that makes sense, I don't need to show (know) my reasons". We no longer have a Goren to "settle the Bridge Arguments" (heh, even then, I preferred Scheinwold, both at the "5 weeks" and the "How to play" levels. He just explains so much better than "Thou Shalt" Goren.

So the situation is: When you agree to play NMF, you have agreed nothing except do not pass. That's fine. Except your partner _thinks_ you have agreed to a whole system of continuations. You can't even say "Let's play it as ...."

Now that I think of it, all such replies on NB should _explicitly_ begin with "There is no consensus on this, but here is what I think best."

My wife and I played that new minor over 1NT initiated _all_ inv+ flexible hands. The raise to 2NT showed a balanced hand too strong to raise to 3NT. Taken literally, that would have been NMF.

[mike777]

Few comments:

1.EHAA, my first bridge system, everyone played it, so I thought it was the only bridge system. We were all younger, much..
Kimmel, Chip , Alan and Cheri played it
So must be ok...

2. Five weeks to winning bridge, my first bridge book.

3. Goren's red book cover on Precision, my second.

4. First learned XYZ about 25 years ago,from my old friends Kimmel, Chip and Hugh. Hugh has now passed. They did send it to me in writing using something called email..

So XYZ been around for a long time. Love it.

5. Coming back to bridge last year playing NMF at the local bridge club

Auction was with opponents silent: 1D=1H =2C=?

My partner told me later

New minor forcing convention.....

Another
1C=1H=2D= NMF

Another
1D=1H=1S=2C..NMF


Never too old to learn ..