[WasWinM]

My understanding, which certainly can be flawed in this case, is that the original negative double was created for just this scenario. I may be misinformed on that, though.

[mikeh]

awm, on 2026-May-31, 10:16, said:

I feel like some very old bridge books advocate doubling on 8. Perhaps openings were more sound in those days (it may go back to Roth/Stone or something).

In the modern style it does seem like 10+ is more sensible.

Even without R-S, which was never actually mainstream, authors such as Goren advocated for 13 hcp to open in first or second, iirc. Then 8 hcp at least meant that your side almost always had more hcp than the opps. Not that I’d want to double 1N with 8 even playing with an old-fashioned player.

[bluenikki]

mikeh, on 2026-May-31, 12:06, said:

Even without R-S, which was never actually mainstream, authors such as Goren advocated for 13 hcp to open in first or second, iirc.

Not hcp. 14 total pts mandatory opening, 13 total pts optional opening.

[pescetom]

awm, on 2026-May-31, 10:16, said:

I feel like some very old bridge books advocate doubling on 8. Perhaps openings were more sound in those days (it may go back to Roth/Stone or something).

In the modern style it does seem like 10+ is more sensible.

I'm looking at a book written in 2014 by a systems expert close to the Italian national team, it says 9+ total points.
The opening style assumed is certainly more conservative than that of many here.

[jillybean]

Well, perhaps both the player giving the advice and I are overestimating their expertise.
8+ seems to be a common agreement among these players, perhaps not never adjusted for openings with less than 13 hcp! Another "rule" to take with a grain of salt but when you are playing in casual partnerships, we have time to agree the basics but never to this level so some knowledge of local approaches is useful, even though flawed.

---

[mikeh]

jillybean, on 2026-May-31, 17:24, said:

Well, perhaps both the player giving the advice and I are overestimating their expertise.
8+ seems to be a common agreement among these players, perhaps not never adjusted for openings with less than 13 hcp! Another "rule" to take with a grain of salt but when you are playing in casual partnerships, we have time to agree the basics but never to this level so some knowledge of local approaches is useful, even though flawed.

---

Hey, if your partner or, indeed, the ‘good’ players in your game think it’s ok to double with 8 hcp, let them. There are two opps and one partner at your table. If all three of them routinely double, and you dont, you’re ahead of the game.

Put another way….if they all want to play bad bridge, why do you feel compelled to play as badly as they do? What’s wrong with you playing better than they do, even if nobody in your game appreciates it?

[akwoo]

This is an agreement where you don't need a number. The only thing I've ever heard is that double is penalty, with whatever doubler thinks is enough to double for penalty opposite an opening hand. (Also, 2 bids are natural non-forcing, and 2N is a distributional hand that is forcing to game in an unknown strain but not willing to penalty double.)

[pescetom]

akwoo, on 2026-May-31, 20:57, said:

2N is a distributional hand that is forcing to game in an unknown strain but not willing to penalty double.

Could you give an example of such hand and developments, please?

[jillybean]

mikeh, on 2026-May-31, 19:39, said:

Hey, if your partner or, indeed, the ‘good’ players in your game think it’s ok to double with 8 hcp, let them. There are two opps and one partner at your table. If all three of them routinely double, and you dont, you’re ahead of the game.

Put another way….if they all want to play bad bridge, why do you feel compelled to play as badly as they do? What’s wrong with you playing better than they do, even if nobody in your game appreciates it?

Yeah, yeah, thanks. My discipline is improving.

[mikeh]

akwoo, on 2026-May-31, 20:57, said:

This is an agreement where you don't need a number. The only thing I've ever heard is that double is penalty, with whatever doubler thinks is enough to double for penalty opposite an opening hand. (Also, 2 bids are natural non-forcing, and 2N is a distributional hand that is forcing to game in an unknown strain but not willing to penalty double.)

I used to play that 2N meaning but it literally never came up. We have a different meaning now, depending on what partner opened