[jillybean]

---

2♣ strong
2♦ A or K
3♣ clubs

[P_Marlowe]

You have to do something.

I would go with 4NT, which should be quant, and basically showes a max. passed hand.
The alternative is 4C.

You could argue, that opener is showing more than a 2NT opening, i.e. 22+, which would
mean, that you have to force.
You know your p better than I do.

[jillybean]

P_Marlowe, on 2026-April-30, 12:24, said:

You have to do something.

Yes , not the green card

You haven't played with this partner for decades, she is known for being "aggressive"

[P_Marlowe]

jillybean, on 2026-April-30, 12:26, said:

Yes , not the green card

You haven't played with this partner for decades, she is known for being "aggressive"

I played with such a player recently.
We agreed to have only one strong opening, and he opened a hand with 2C, followed
by 2NT, ... holding 10HCP, I decided to go with 4NT, he bid 5C ( I assumed 3KC )
and I was left with bidding my 5 carder Axxxx or 6NT ... Nice p I am, I showed my
ragged suit.

In the end it did not matter, he had a hand, that on could upgrade into a 2NT opener,
he decided to further upgrade and sell the upgraded hand as max.
I only got to decide, who went down, being a nice p that I am, I ventured to undertake it.

Sometimes you are only a passenger on a train you cannot leave.

[Cyberyeti]

I don't understand why you don't give a positive with this type of hand, are you playing 2♥ double neg and transfers or something ?

Goes so much easier after the 2♣-2♥-3♣-4♣ we would have, you've given way more info out.

That said, 4♣ seems beyond obvious in your auction

[pescetom]

Am I too grumpy if I start with a complaint about disclosure?

jillybean, on 2026-April-30, 12:06, said:

2♣ strong
2♦ A or K
3♣ clubs

I struggled with 2♦ until I realized you meant "at least one A or K in an undisclosed suit, no suit with these requisites"
And you still failed to explain whether "clubs" imposed or merely proposed trumps.

I too fail to see why your hearts did not make the cut for showing your own suit, however you do that.
But if now 3♣ merely proposes trumps then 4♣ fixing suit and inviting control-bids looks automatic, you have Kxx and a source of tricks.
If 3♣ imposed trumps then you have to explain what 3NT over 3♥ means.

[mw64ahw]

I'm going to avoid 4NT as opener will pass with a minimum and you have over 4 playing tricks
Does 3♥ show 5 here? with 3♦ asking for Majors?
Does 3♣ guarantee 5 (rather than a (4414)?
If so then 4♣ as a slam invite is clear and I'll look to establish where the controls are.

[jillybean]

I've been out in the sun, and have a lot to answer

Cyberyeti, on 2026-April-30, 13:44, said:

I don't understand why you don't give a positive with this type of hand, are you playing 2♥ double neg and transfers or something ?

Goes so much easier after the 2♣-2♥-3♣-4♣ we would have, you've given way more info out.

That said, 4♣ seems beyond obvious in your auction

I very rarely use a positive response, prefering to let the strong hand describe their hand. If I make a positive response we are looking for grand.
2♥ would deny A,K. I find this very useful for opener to know they could be missing 1st/2nd round control early in the auction.

pescetom, on 2026-April-30, 15:30, said:

Am I too grumpy if I start with a complaint about disclosure?

I struggled with 2♦ until I realized you meant "at least one A or K in an undisclosed suit, no suit with these requisites"
And you still failed to explain whether "clubs" imposed or merely proposed trumps.

I too fail to see why your hearts did not make the cut for showing your own suit, however you do that.
But if now 3♣ merely proposes trumps then 4♣ fixing suit and inviting control-bids looks automatic, you have Kxx and a source of tricks.
If 3♣ imposed trumps then you have to explain what 3NT over 3♥ means.

Apologies for my sloppy disclosure. Artificial 2♦ "waiting" is standard in ACBL simply indicating an Ace or King somewhere in the hand.
3♣ does not impose trump, it will show an unbalanced hand (although that definition is getting stretched beyond most players imagination) , 6+ solid clubs.

mw64ahw, on 2026-April-30, 15:42, said:

I'm going to avoid 4NT as opener will pass with a minimum and you have over 4 playing tricks
Does 3♥ show 5 here? with 3[di} asking for Majors?
Does 3♣ guarantee 5 (rather than a (4414)?
If so then 4♣ as a slam invite is clear and I'll look to establish where the controls are.

3♥ should be 5, I do not have a specific agreement that 3♦ would ask for a major, it would show a suit, unsuitable for nt
3♣ 6+
Partner will respond positively to any cue

footnote. you are all having a dull auction

[mike777]

4C now

I don't mind a positive in H(2NT) or 2D.

Being a passed hand, a heart positive does have a lot going for it.

[jillybean]

mike777, on 2026-April-30, 18:31, said:

4C now

I don't mind a positive in H(2NT) or 2D.

Being a passed hand, a heart positive does have a lot going for it.

Do your methods vary for passed, unpassed hand?

[mike777]

 jillybean, on 2026-April-30, 19:48, said:

Do your methods vary for passed, unpassed hand?

I tend to not make positive responses, pretty rare unless great suit

Here I think either response is fine

I just lean towards hearts

All roads lead to 4C

[jillybean]

Here's the hand

---

[mw64ahw]

jillybean, on 2026-April-30, 16:33, said:

3♥ should be 5, I do not have a specific agreement that 3♦ would ask for a major, it would show a suit, unsuitable for nt
3♣ 6+

what do you bid with (31)45?

[Cyberyeti]

If you only bid a positive on great suits, KQJxx or KQxxxx then this is easy, the key card here is ♥J.

Btw, what is 2♣-2N for the OP ? if you don't play transfers here, it would make sense for it to be hearts.

I think the tendency to respond 2♦ all the time is because the minimum balanced option is by far the most common for 2♣, and you can easily describe this hand over that.

I dislike the double negative 2♥ as it means distinguishing a 4 count from an 8 count can be difficult if partner bids a suit.

[jillybean]

mw64ahw, on 2026-May-01, 00:07, said:

what do you bid with (31)45?

In this auction, I would raise clubs but I don't think that is your question

[pescetom]

I solved the problem of responder showing his strong suit by moving that into a 2♠ marionette (whatever the suit). Opener normally bids 2NT over which Responder bids his suit in transfer. Opener may complete the transfer fixing trumps, or bid 3NT expressing doubt and showing 22-24 balanced, or bid his own self sufficient single suit imposing trumps.
Rightsides everything except spades and works like a dream.

I'm less convinced about the effectiveness of 2♥ denying any A or K, but the data comes in so slowly that I'm not reaching conclusions yet.
It hasn't led to any poor game/slam decisions: a couple of times we stopped in a partial when the field did not, one was good and the other bad.

[jillybean]

Cyberyeti, on 2026-May-01, 02:20, said:

If you only bid a positive on great suits, KQJxx or KQxxxx then this is easy, the key card here is ♥J.

Btw, what is 2♣-2N for the OP ? if you don't play transfers here, it would make sense for it to be hearts.

I think the tendency to respond 2♦ all the time is because the minimum balanced option is by far the most common for 2♣, and you can easily describe this hand over that.

I dislike the double negative 2♥ as it means distinguishing a 4 count from an 8 count can be difficult if partner bids a suit.

Yes, 2N shows hearts but it is a very rare sequence, I would readily drop it.
It's interesting that the way this thread is going, I've come unstuck recently with some Aussies who like to use 2D followed by 2H double negative.

[mike777]

This hand really should not be hard for intermediate level players, yet in practice it is.

I think the main reason is responder does not understand the 3c rebid by opener. Yes, they know it shows clubs, yes, they know it shows a strong hand. However that seems to be the limit of understanding for many at this level.

Perhaps some think, opener has 22, I have about 9 or ten, maybe I should gamble out the 6 level despite not being sure about 33 pts.


Unfortunately, they don't seem that interested in taking it to the next level of hand evaluation....

A level where you can quickly, at the table, visualize partners hand and count to 13 tricks.

Again on this deal it goes back to not fully understanding the three club rebid by opener...
----------------

For opener, if responder does bid 2NT showing a positive in hearts, all the more reason opener can bid the grand after finding club support and the KC
This hand really needs to become routine for us intermediate level players.

[jillybean]

pescetom, on 2026-May-01, 09:42, said:

I solved the problem of responder showing his strong suit by moving that into a 2♠ marionette (whatever the suit). Opener normally bids 2NT over which Responder bids his suit in transfer. Opener may complete the transfer fixing trumps, or bid 3NT expressing doubt and showing 22-24 balanced, or bid his own self sufficient single suit imposing trumps.
Rightsides everything except spades and works like a dream.

I'm less convinced about the effectiveness of 2♥ denying any A or K, but the data comes in so slowly that I'm not reaching conclusions yet.
It hasn't led to any poor game/slam decisions: a couple of times we stopped in a partial when the field did not, one was good and the other bad.

In my humble opinion, the frequency of a positive response does not justify another artificial sequence. I don't recall + responses causing problems, our slam bidding has improved as I have reduced the use of "4nt slam try". I will be interested in the results when you have more data.

mike777, on 2026-May-01, 14:57, said:

Perhaps some think, opener has 22, I have about 9 or ten, maybe I should gamble out the 6 level despite not being sure about 33 pts.

We really are playing 2 different games.

[pescetom]

 jillybean, on 2026-May-01, 15:36, said:

In my humble opinion, the frequency of a positive response does not justify another artificial sequence. I don't recall + responses causing problems, our slam bidding has improved as I have reduced the use of "4nt slam try". I will be interested in the results when you have more data.

I assume you mean the frequency of a *negative* response (2♥ denying any A or K).
Yes the frequency is low, but I don't see that as an issue in itself: when it does occur and also make a difference in contract then we are often talking about a MP top or bottom, so these are still significant marginal gains (or losses).
Also it's not as if there is an important alternative use of 2♥, natural is (IMO) silly and superfluous in our system in any case.
The real issue is whether it may be doing more harm than good, as mikeh decided (but in a different method and style).
If we did give up the negative response next year, probably the best use I can imagine would be to make Responder's show of a suit two way, maybe 5= cards bidding 2♥ and 6+ cards bidding 2♠. Or move it to 2♥ and use 2♠ for something else.