[1eyedjack]

Partner opens 2NT (21-22)
RHO overcalls 3S
You hold
S:xx
H:JTxx
D:xxxx
C:xxx

You have not discussed this situation but your general philosophy is that double is penalty if pass is forcing, double is take-out if pass is non-forcing.

Do you double in the hope of preventing partner from bidding? Or you do you pass, trusting that partner will double unless having something serious to say, in order that a double in your seat says something positive? Is pass by you here even forcing?

Thoughts, please. I have deliberately not stated vul or scoring, because if that makes a difference I am also interested in variations in recommendation based on those attributes

[Double !]

Great post question!

My feeling is that, if P has a limited albeit large hand, why can't I pass when I have no bid? And, where is it written that both P and opp can't have their bids, and that 3S makes? Is double negative or something else. I wish to hear opinions on this: I was taught to play it as negative but maybe there is a better way.

I know that there are many who play that, after P has opened 2C and opp has overcalled, that a double by the partner of the 2C bidder shows a double negative hand. But, this is a different issue.

[Winstonm]

I would say it depends greatly on the level of the competition to which you gear your bidding. If you are trying to win at the local club, then penalty is probably best as a lot of the time players at this level get out of line; however, if you prefer playing top flight K.O. events against serious challengers you will find they have full values for their bids too often to make trying to punish them a priority - better here to use almost all doubles as takeout so you can overcome to a degree their obstructionism.

IMO, the hand as given is a clear cut pass - I don't expect partner to do anything really except to try to go plus at 3S. Give me a little more hand like:

xx,
QJxx
Qxx
xxxx

This is the hand I feel I need to be able to show. I don't like it much when they steal a partscore from me, but I REALLY hate it when they steal a game.

If on the post's example hand you find partner with: Ax, AK10xx, Axx, AQx you still haven't lost much of anything taking plus 50 or 100. But with the better hand,
I'd prefer taking my chances on collecting +620.

Winston

[hrothgar]

1eyedjack, on Jul 31 2005, 01:50 AM, said:

Do you double in the hope of preventing partner from bidding? Or you do you pass, trusting that partner will double unless having something serious to say, in order that a double in your seat says something positive? Is pass by you here even forcing?

Interesting hand...

I prefer to play negative doubles when the opps interfere over our 1NT openings.
Accordingly, holding a penalty double oriented hand I either have to pass, hoping that partner will balance or suggest game in NT.

As you noted, this does run the risk that partner will balance inappropriately...
On this hand, I'm going to pass. In turn, partner is allowed to pass if he see's fit.

My Spade shortage suggests that partner should be able to figure out that I'm not trap passing.

The following hand

♠ xxxx
♥ xxx
♦ Qxxx
♣ xx

would be much trickier...

[Double !]

hrothgar, on Jul 31 2005, 01:54 AM, said:

The following hand

♠ xxxx
♥ xxx
♦ Qxxx
♣ xx

would be much trickier...

why trickier?
You aren't bidding over 3S and one would likely pass if P re-opens with double. Then try and present a forcing defense. OK, what am I missing here? (Even I rate to have a good sense of the trump distribution once dummy is revealed. lolololol)

[EricK]

You've got to pass. 3♠ might be making with overtricks.

Partner has told me what he has got. I hope he doesn't feel that he has to tell me again.

Give overcaller ♠KJT9xx ♥A ♦x ♣AQxxx and partner ♠AQ ♥KQxx ♦KQJx ♣KJx and see how many tricks are made in ♠!

Eric

[1eyedjack]

Thanks for the replies, all.

Whilst I recognise the possibility that they may be making, if you judge the frequency of that event to be sufficiently low it does not make sense to build that possibility into your methods of dealing with the overcall. You just have to accept a bad result on that low frequency hand, when you are so short of bidding space that you often have to make an immediate and possibly unilateral decision on the final contract.

I have a feeling that vul may make a difference to philosophy.

If we open 2N non-vul, and opponent overcalls 3S vul, I will happily let him buy it.
If we open 2N vul, and opponent overcalls 3S non-vul, he is much more likely to be 2 or 3 tricks short than he is to be making, especially if he reckons that there is a prospect of buying it undoubled.

I would normally say that if responder's double would be take-out orientated then so will opener's protective double. If opener is sitting there with Spade length (opposite responder's shortage) then the only way to double them is if responder doubles. Perhaps this is one of those odd situations where one partner (responder) should be make a take-out double (promising values) and the other partner (opener) should (after responder passes) make a penalty double with trump length. It does not seem likely that opener will ever have a hand suitable for balancing with 3NT after responder passes, so you could use a protective double by opener as showing a hand that would be suitable for a 3NT balance but would rather go for the "sure" plus.

Perhaps some of you take the view that opener can only ever pass the auction out if responder passes (promising nothing)? That makes some sense also, but I worry about the vul v nonvul opener.

[coyot]

Clear-cut pass, no matter what the vulnerability is.

If you hold garbage against 2NT, your side is already too high . If opponents gave you the chance to get a plus score, let them play their 3♠.

Unless partner has a really good hand, 2NT goes down one or even two, so if opps make 3♠, no big deal. Plus, there is the chance that p makes 5-6 tricks and you'll get a plus.

My agreement would be that double is card-showing with no good suit (and partner decides between pass and 3NT, with the occasional disaster od 3♠ making, but much more often going down or us making 3NT), pass is natural and a new bid is card-showing and suit-showing.