[P_Marlowe]

pescetom, on 2026-January-19, 07:32, said:

I too would have bid 3S fixing trumps in diamonds, at IMPs.
<snip>

I am not convinced.
3S setting diamonds instead of hearts, will send the message, that you are
worried about playing 3NT and prefer to play 5D, setting diamonds should
deny a heart fit.
If partner was only looking for the best game, you may end up playing 5D
instead of 4H. Majors rule, at least at the game level.

[pescetom]

 P_Marlowe, on 2026-January-19, 07:38, said:

I will try, will be my first attemp.

Thanks. The only real difficulty is finding it (looks a bit like a dirty Canadian flag). Watch out which hand you are actually defining if you show multiple hands (you are at the top but it's not necessarily North). Remember to choose "insert diagram" before closing the window! The easiest way to add explanations to calls is to edit them into the auction string inside your post (change "1ntp2dp" to "1nt(11-14)p2d(hearts)p" u.s.w.).

[Huibertus]

DavidKok, on 2026-January-19, 06:27, said:

Last Train convention, I bet.

Right OK, possible I guess. That was Meckstroth according to Wiki, both the invention and naming it after the Song. That was below game (so 4♦, not 5♦) but I guess 5♦ could work fine.

But I still don't get the EITHER Ace OR Last Train part, How is partner supposed to work out which one you are intending when he is not looking at the Ace himself?

[pescetom]

 P_Marlowe, on 2026-January-19, 07:41, said:

I am not convinced.
3S setting diamonds instead of hearts, will send the message, that you are
worried about playing 3NT and prefer to play 5D, setting diamonds should
deny a heart fit.
If partner was only looking for the best game, you may end up playing 5D
instead of 4H. Majors rule, at least at the game level.

Not if you are my partner, you would know I would never set diamonds merely because worried about 3NT or hoping to stop on a dime in 5D. But then I am used to playing strong NT and so my habitual reasoning may not translate to the actual situation.

[P_Marlowe]

Huibertus, on 2026-January-19, 08:05, said:

Right OK, possible I guess. That was Meckstroth according to Wiki, both the invention and naming it after the Song. That was below game (so 4♦, not 5♦) but I guess 5♦ could work fine.

But I still don't get the EITHER Ace OR Last Train part, How is partner supposed to work out which one you are intending when he is not looking at the Ace himself?

Lets replace the word Ace, with diamond control.

Last Train also applies on the 6 level.

[mike777]

 P_Marlowe, on 2026-January-19, 07:41, said:

I am not convinced.
3S setting diamonds instead of hearts, will send the message, that you are
worried about playing 3NT and prefer to play 5D, setting diamonds should
deny a heart fit.
If partner was only looking for the best game, you may end up playing 5D
instead of 4H. Majors rule, at least at the game level.

Disagree with most of this. However that is a totally different set of threads.

Partner is Captain. The 4-4 fit may play better than the 5-3. In fact in Diamonds you might even have the "magical" 5-4 fit.
5-4 fits rule..

Partner clearly has doubt about no trump.

-----
--++++


As far as
Last train or Serious or Non, two conventions I can live without
However
The Monkees rule

[P_Marlowe]

mike777, on 2026-January-19, 08:17, said:

Disagree with most of this. However that is a totally different set of threads.

Partner is Captain. The 4-4 fit may play better than the 5-3. In fact in Diamonds you might even have the "magical" 5-4 fit.
5-4 fits rule..

Partner clearly has doubt about no trump.

The counter argument is 10 tricks are easier than 11.
But you are right: you will only have a 5-3 in hearts, and a
possible 5-4 in diamonds, ..., if p has doubts about NT, his
most likely distribution will be either 5521 or 5431, you can
rule out 5422.

[DavidKok]

 Huibertus, on 2026-January-19, 08:05, said:

Right OK, possible I guess. That was Meckstroth according to Wiki, both the invention and naming it after the Song. That was below game (so 4♦, not 5♦) but I guess 5♦ could work fine.

But I still don't get the EITHER Ace OR Last Train part, How is partner supposed to work out which one you are intending when he is not looking at the Ace himself?

This is also the way I play this convention, I think it is not at all strange. I'm surprised that you have such a strong negative reaction to this. Have you played it for long?

[P_Marlowe]

pescetom, on 2026-January-19, 08:07, said:

Not if you are my partner, you would know I would never set diamonds merely because worried about 3NT or hoping to stop on a dime in 5D. But then I am used to playing strong NT and so my habitual reasoning may not translate to the actual situation.

Partner wanted to play the weak NT, ..., slam bidding after a weak NT opening
is rare, you could convince me that 3D should show SI, but than:
Given our NT will usually have max. 3S, p should be worried about a spade holding
spade shortage as well.
Spade is the auto attack, if we end up in NT, even without the information about
our NT opening, and without showing the diamonds.

[pescetom]

 P_Marlowe, on 2026-January-19, 08:27, said:

Partner wanted to play the weak NT, ..., slam bidding after a weak NT opening
is rare, you could convince me that 3D should show SI, but than:
Given our NT will usually have max. 3S, p should be worried about a spade holding
spade shortage as well.
Spade is the auto attack, if we end up in NT, even without the information about
our NT opening, and without showing the diamonds.

As I said, I may well miss some differences induced by a weak NT. But trying to reason in your agreement, I see responder forcing to game opposite a balanced hand that could be as weak as 11 HCP and was not excited about hearts. I have 3 HCP more, an 8 card fit in hearts and an 8-9 card fit in diamonds: that is quite enough to show interest in the diamonds slam, in my eyes.
My order of priorities is 6D, 4H, 3NT, although even 3NT would have chances: partner may hold spades Ace, the opponents may well be 4-4 and at least one red suit should run to help us figure out their holdings.
But after my 3S I am hoping to hear 4C and now we are on the way to the races. Over 3NT non serious I would pull to 4H and over 4D raise to 5D.

[P_Marlowe]

DavidKok, on 2026-January-19, 08:26, said:

This is also the way I play this convention, I think it is not at all strange. I'm surprised that you have such a strong negative reaction to this. Have you played it for long?

Gitelman explained the logic behind pretty well, ..., the internet archieve may help.

[Huibertus]

DavidKok, on 2026-January-19, 08:26, said:

This is also the way I play this convention, I think it is not at all strange. I'm surprised that you have such a strong negative reaction to this. Have you played it for long?

I'm actually asking how it works a I don't understand, and NO I have never played LTC.

[Huibertus]

P_Marlowe, on 2026-January-19, 10:47, said:

Gitelman explained the logic behind pretty well, ..., the internet archieve may help.

I found this http://youth.worldbr...-fred-gitelman/ where Gitelman explains LTC.

What I'm actually asking is "How does the mechanism work where 5♦ can either show ♦ Ace, or is LTC. How is partner supposed to work out if you are advocating an Ace or if you are asking for undisclosed values?"

Maybe Gitelman explains it elsewhere, but I can't find it.

[P_Marlowe]

Huibertus, on 2026-January-19, 12:17, said:

I found this http://youth.worldbr...-fred-gitelman/ where Gitelman explains LTC.

What I'm actually asking is "How does the mechanism work where 5♦ can either show ♦ Ace, or is LTC. How is partner supposed to work out if you are advocating an Ace or if you are asking for undisclosed values?"

Maybe Gitelman explains it elsewhere, but I can't find it.

It was an old side, ..., the color was black, yellow letters.
Sry ..., 20 years ago? It contained several columns, ..., I presume
written by Gitelman, I also believe I recall, it was a side to
download the BBO Windows frontend.

Anyway, most of the time the context of the auction makes it clear,
what p is looking for / showing, and what not.
As it is, in the given seq. the limited hand, makes the bid, he cant have
undisclosed strength, i.e. it has to be the control.

Basically the bid says, you have something, that was not shown before, but
maybe useful to justify to go on.

You could also say, it showes a hand, that would have made a Break in Tempo
bid, now guess, what the Break in Tempo bid showes.

[pescetom]

P_Marlowe, on 2026-January-19, 12:53, said:

You could also say, it showes a hand, that would have made a Break in Tempo
bid, now guess, what the Break in Tempo bid showes.

But now what does a BiT before LT show?

[blackshoe]

If I'm not mistaken Last Train was invented and named by Jeff Meckstroth.

[P_Marlowe]

Hi,
my partner did bid 6D, various valid options got mentioned, and hopefully some points were
interesting enough.
As West I was just planning to make 1 move toward slam, and settle in 4H, if the move felt on
deaf ears, the hand has potential, but thats it.
My p knowes, that I dont like to go down in slam, and did short cut the auction, to bar me from
checking out to early, which I am prone to do.

As it is, as opener you have to decide, what to show, if you go the cue bid route, you hide the
double fit, and you may also have trouble locating your best fit, ..., it is possible that you
may be able to introduce diamonds at a later stage, and going the control bid route, you may discover
that the King of clubs, which looked great at first sight, is of dubious value, what is left is a
11 count with 4333.

Anyway you are in 6D, and you get the H3 lead, 4th best. Plan the play.

With kind regards
Marlowe

---

[mw64ahw]

Director - we have 2x2♥

[jillybean]

pescetom, on 2026-January-19, 07:57, said:

Thanks. The only real difficulty is finding it (looks a bit like a dirty Canadian flag). Watch out which hand you are actually defining if you show multiple hands (you are at the top but it's not necessarily North). Remember to choose "insert diagram" before closing the window! The easiest way to add explanations to calls is to edit them into the auction string inside your post (change "1ntp2dp" to "1nt(11-14)p2d(hearts)p" u.s.w.).

I find the easiest way is to add the text to the alert box when making the auction.

[mike777]

Hate East bidding, really, they are the limited well defined hand but they co-opt