[mike777]

I am really old fashion

I use 1C-2C as natural,weak, clubs

Sort of the exact opposite of generic gf

Surprisingly it comes up

[jillybean]

I am really old fashion
FYP

What do you use for your forcing minor raise?
I have one partner who will agree to play around with 2C generic gf, unfortunately we only play one or twice a month.

[WasWinM]

I think the way inverted minors is structured is pretty silly, like programmers do with extra memory,
creating something just because there's space for it regardless of usefulness. Stopper showing is what
I mean, which is fine and dandy if you can peal off 9 tricks, but the raise may be 4-4 or 5-4 but the
suit doesn't run. Beside, NT bidding is based on shape, not stoppers. There are much better uses
for the bids following an inverted raise-think about that and create your own better system I say.

[mike777]

jillybean, on 2026-January-09, 17:04, said:

I am really old fashion
FYP

What do you use for your forcing minor raise?
I have one partner who will agree to play around with 2C generic gf, unfortunately we only play one or twice a month.

criss cross


1c=2d=gf


1d=3c=gf

1minor=2 spades=LR

[pescetom]

 jillybean, on 2026-January-09, 11:06, said:

Meanwhile I'm beginning to wonder about 1C 2C generic GF

Much less brain stress
At least when combined with a 5542 opening and responder bidding a 4 card major naturally. Now you can disambiguate the GF 1C 2C and 1D 2C sequences naturally, play natural raises of diamonds and you also get for free 1C 1D as a possible weak "raise" of clubs (if Opener rebids 2D then we can sign off in 3C comfortably).

If you want to respond 2C with all GF strength responder hands then it gets more complicated and you may wish to add a relay.

[jillybean]

mike777, on 2026-January-09, 18:27, said:

criss cross


1c=2d=gf


1d=3c=gf

1minor=2 spades=LR

I did play this when I first added a gf minor raise, this was what was taught at the time.
Then I became aware of preserving bidding space, 1D 3C, 1m 2S takes up all of the useful space and along came "inverted minors",
and now there's perhaps a better method.


pescetom, do you have any notes on Italian 1C:2C*

[pescetom]

jillybean, on 2026-January-10, 11:42, said:

pescetom, do you have any notes on Italian 1C:2C*

Only in Italian. But as I mentioned above, if you play sane 5542 openings you can treat both 1C 2C and 1D 2C as GF and use your "normal" semi-natural continuations after 2/1.
After 1C 2C 2N natural balanced: a new suit is natural, 3C is 6+, 3NT is to play, 4NT quantitative, 4C can even be Gerber if you like
After 1C 2C 3C natural clubs: 2N asks Opener to continue to describe, a new suit may be just a stop for NT, 3NT is to play, 4C invites control-bid.
After 1C 2C 2M natural without promising extras: 3C is 6+, 3M invites control-bid, 4M is fast arrival, 3D/oM is seeking 3NT.

I never bothered to go beyond this KISS with my current range of partners but there are more precise schemes and also relay developments.

[jillybean]

Thanks

[mike777]

 jillybean, on 2026-January-10, 11:42, said:

I did play this when I first added a gf minor raise, this was what was taught at the time.
Then I became aware of preserving bidding space, 1D 3C, 1m 2S takes up all of the useful space and along came "inverted minors",
and now there's perhaps a better method.


pescetom, do you have any notes on Italian 1C:2C*

Perhaps it does, however it seems many play where it does not.

How do you show up exactly a gf and preserve space? How do you show exactly a limit raise by responding hand?

Again for sake of discussion you may indeed safe space however others don't seem to

[pescetom]

mike777, on 2026-January-10, 15:57, said:

How do you show up exactly a gf and preserve space? How do you show exactly a limit raise by responding hand?

In the simple Italian scheme I outlined, a 2C response shows a gf and preserves space, 1C 3C and 1D 3D are exactly the natural limit raises that your mother would expect.
1D 2D is a natural weak diamonds raise and a weak clubs raise goes through either 1C 1D or 1C 1N without shedding tears.

[jillybean]

mike777, on 2026-January-10, 15:57, said:

Perhaps it does, however it seems many play where it does not.

How do you show up exactly a gf and preserve space? How do you show exactly a limit raise by responding hand?

Again for sake of discussion you may indeed safe space however others don't seem to

I played 1m:2m and criss cross until forum contributors convinced me it was better to play 1m:2m and inv+.
I play this with one partner, our methods are very basic 1m 2m 2x 3m/2n is invitational. To show a gf raise, we may be at the 3 level but opener has the opporunity to show his hand at the 2 level, playing criss cross over 1D, we are already at the 3 level.

Ironically, I have a substitute partner to play tomorrow. the card he sent has criss cross and modified Bloomen, so I am now learning another defence to 1nt

[mike777]

Criss cross, as I have learned, means different things to different people, discuss ..

[jillybean]

mike777, on 2026-January-11, 14:05, said:

Criss cross, as I have learned, means different things to different people, discuss ..

Yes 😁 so too does “modified bloomen”
I would have spent time before the game either discussing these conventions or removing them from the card but frankly, there is so much discussion and UI at the table I don’t feel so compelled to get it right and avoid UI. It’s probably only one game.

[pescetom]

jillybean, on 2026-January-11, 14:13, said:

Yes �� so too does “modified bloomen”
I would have spent time before the game either discussing these conventions or removing them from the card but frankly, there is so much discussion and UI at the table I don’t feel so compelled to get it right and avoid UI. It’s probably only one game.

So you alert partner's "bloomen" (whatever that is if she might be playing it) and then ask "are we playing modified?".
That should cover most bases, just not bridge.

[jillybean]

pescetom, on 2026-January-12, 16:32, said:

So you alert partner's "bloomen" (whatever that is if she might be playing it) and then ask "are we playing modified?".
That should cover most bases, just not bridge.

I was up all night studying bloomen. First hand of the day…yes, I know this

---

0

[mike777]

 jillybean, on 2026-January-12, 18:13, said:

I was up all night studying bloomen. First hand of the day…yes, I know this

---

So how do you play it?
Shape showing is one aspect
What about strength or vulnerability?
Suit quality or other?

0

[jillybean]

According to system card 2nt shows both minors.
Of course no time to discuss any details

[pescetom]

jillybean, on 2026-January-12, 18:13, said:

I was up all night studying bloomen. First hand of the day…yes, I know this

---

IIUC from the lack of alert by North, X was a "Puppet" (if one can borrow opponents' bid for that) to 2♣ and not a Relay?
If so I would have explained it as "obliges 2♣, then I pass or describe".
What would an immediate 2NT or 4NT instead of X have been?

[jillybean]

pescetom, on 2026-January-13, 13:17, said:

IIUC from the lack of alert by North, X was a "Puppet" (if one can borrow opponents' bid for that) to 2♣ and not a Relay?
If so I would have explained it as "obliges 2♣, then I pass or describe".
What would an immediate 2NT or 4NT instead of X have been?

Partner called X a relay to 2C, if followed by 2NT shows both minors. (common misuse of relay/puppet terms)
Direct 2nt and 4nt undefined, I'm not interested in knowing more

[pescetom]

jillybean, on 2026-January-14, 06:31, said:

Direct 2nt and 4nt undefined, I'm not interested in knowing more

I have yet to reach two decades of bridge, but I do already feel suspicious about any convention I never heard of