[DenisO]

This may be a silly question but I am at the novice stage in learning Moscito/symmetric. I just can't find any mention of how to resolve 6610 hands in the 2-suiter tables when responding to 1c. Can someone point me to the correct treatment?

Thx
Denis

[DrTodd13]

6601 is treated like 5521.

Todd

[hrothgar]

Treat 6=6=2=0 as 5=5=2=1 and then zoom during the control count

[Cascade]

Quote

This may be a silly question but I am at the novice stage in learning Moscito/symmetric. I just can't find any mention of how to resolve 6610 hands in the 2-suiter tables when responding to 1c. Can someone point me to the correct treatment?

Thx
Denis

Hi Denis

Extreme shapes are not in the table.

The table (probably) only caters to:

4333
4432
4441
5332
5422
5431
5440
5521
5530
6322
6331
6421
6430
6511
6520
7222
7321 (maybe ambiguously)
7411
7420

everything else is an extreme shape.

The original idea was to show some other shape and then jump a level when showing controls.

You can tie every extreme shape to some standard shape - but lots of memory for something that doesnt come up often ...

or you can add some steps ...

or you can try something else.

I have played that all 55+ extreme hands show 5521 and then move if appropriate later - after partner's sign-off.

We also played all single suiter extreme shapes show 5332 and all two suiters show 5431.

I am sure that it is not best but it doesnt occur too often to worry about :-)

Wayne

[DrTodd13]

6+6+2 = 14

Director!

[the hog]

Hmm Todd, it seems your system is not optimised. We always found ways of showing 6620 shapes. (Especially as I once described partner's holding as such!). rofl

[keylime]

Symmetric relays? I feel like I'm rereading Regal's Precision in the 90's (decent book)....

[the hog]

Decent book on Precision? Yes, but the worst treatment of Symmetric I think I have ever seen. The book is totally useless for anyone who wants to learn it.

[keylime]

Well I didn't say it was a great writeup (thought it was really confusing to be honest), but for a strong club text it wasn't too bad.

[hrothgar]

agreed
the symmetric write up was dreadful

[DenisO]

Quote

Treat 6=6=2=0 as 5=5=2=1 and then zoom during the control count

Thanks for the info (& to Cascade) - I've now got extra detail from the Grosvenor/Robinson notes on Bridgeguys.

Presumable including 7420 and not 6610 is down to relative frequencies. Does anyone have info on expected suit frequencies opposite a Moscito 1C opener?

Thx
Denis

[hrothgar]

Hi Denis

Unfortunately, I never ran this simulation.

I'm "sure" that forcing opener to hold a strong club bid will effect the conditional probability density functions. MOSCITO allows players considerable lattitude to select the set of hands that they chose to open with a strong club. For example, the strong club opening normally requires at least 9 slam points, however, with "extreme" shape - at least 10 cards in the two longest suits - opener can open 1C with 8 slam points. In turn, this means that the MOSCITO 1C opener's are statistically biased, as are all the other hands at the table.

With this said and done, I don't expect that the impact would be that significant.
If anyone has a copy of Hans Van Stavern's dealer up and running, the could check this pretty quickly.

I'm attaching the "definition" for a MOSCITO strong club opening that I used for most of my simulations. This provides a good approximation regarding my judgement of what constitutues a strong club opening playing MOSCITO.

cccc is a function defining Kaplan-Rubens point count.
C13 is a function that allows players to adjust normal HCP standards.
I set C13 to:

Ace = 3
King = 2
Queen = 1
Jack = 0.5
10 = 0.25


one_club =

(
hcp(north)>=17

or

c13(north) >=1000

or

(hcp(north)>=15 and cccc(north)>=1600 and c13(north)>=900)

or

(hcp(north)==14 and cccc(north)>=1900 and c13(north)>=900)

or

(hcp(north)==13 and cccc(north)>=2000 and c13(north)>=900)

or

(
 hcp(north)>=15 and
 shape(north, any 4333 + any 4432 + any 5332 + any
5422)
 and
 c13(north) >= 900
)
)

[the hog]

Rather than have a specific shape for 7411s as Wayne suggested, I think it is better to use the original symmetric idea that even residue is shown as a 5422 OR a 7411 (generally 3C shows this).
Now 3D* 3H = 7411, 3S+ = 5422.

The 7420 and the 6610 shapes are too infrequent to worry about. Show the 7420 as a 7330. You will nearly always play in the 7 carder anyway. The other point to remember is that at this stage you are probably far better off with this knowledge than those playing a standard system anyway. (Roy Kerr uses the lovely analogy in his original system book that symmetric is like an impressionistic painting.