[shanbari]

1D - 2C;
2S

does opener 2s rebid promise 4 card spade, or just shows spade stopper ?

for example, opener holds
S: KJT
H: xxx
D: -----
C: -----

1D - 2C;
? does opener bid 2S, or something else, such as 2D, 2N..?

btw, i didn't see BBO advanced system covering the 1D-2C topic yet.

thanks,

Barid,

[mike777]

Not only would I expect 4 spades 100% of the time but I would expect 5D 99% of the time.

[whereagles]

I would expect 4 spades + 5 diams and 15+ hcp.

[han]

If with "15+ HCP" you mean "considerable extras" then I agree. If you mean it literally then I would claim that you are a hopeless point counter.

AQ10x x AQJxxx xx seems enough for a 2S bid to me.

[mike777]

Hannie, on Jul 19 2005, 12:40 PM, said:

If with "15+ HCP" you mean "considerable extras" then I agree. If you mean it literally then I would claim that you are a hopeless point counter.

AQ10x x AQJxxx xx seems enough for a 2S bid to me.

Ha

I can live with
AXXX=XX=AQXXX=XX
1d=2c=2s

I would post even worse hands but this is a family channel.

[luis]

When 2♣ is GF I like 2♠ to show 4 diamonds and 4 spades exactly. Whenever opener has 5+ diamonds he bids 2♦.

[Al_U_Card]

Since I like to play that this sequence is NOT GF, I use whatever inverted minor method is in play. Responder denies a 4 card major, so usually the "reverse" rebid of 2 of a major is stopper asking or telling. btw the force ends at 3 of the minor

[coyot]

If we play 2/1 GF, 2♠
1) denies balanced hand (2NT and 3NT rebids no matter what stoppers I lack)
2) promises stopper (If I happen to have very long diamonds, I will run from 3NT later)
3) does not necessarily deny heart stopper (4-3-5-1 or similar)
4) does NOT promise any extras.

I don't ever play 2/1 as 10+, but I would probably treat it the same way.

[inquiry]

Like Luis, I play 2♦ rebid with five, but oddly enough, I play 2♠ as a strong club raise. What??? Yes, this is another one of those bids, I converted full time to it after Fred talked about it here in the forum. I use to play 2D five+, bid a major, 4 with four in diamonds as well, so 2S (like luis) was 4S, 4D, denied 4H and probably not 4C (as would raise).

See Fred's post on this.

[shanbari]

inquiry, on Jul 19 2005, 03:07 PM, said:

Like Luis, I play 2♦ rebid with five, but oddly enough, I play 2♠ as a strong club raise. What??? Yes, this is another one of those bids, I converted full time to it after Fred talked about it here in the forum. I use to play 2D five+, bid a major, 4 with four in diamonds as well, so 2S (like luis) was 4S, 4D, denied 4H and probably not 4C (as would raise).

See Fred's post on this.

ben, do you have the link of what u mentioned above ? thanks,

[mikeh]

The sequence 1♦ 2♣ is the most complex 2/1 sequence there is, and something that all serious partnerships must discuss.

There are all kinds of treatments, which shine on some hands and look bad on others.

For what it is worth, and this is relatively simple, I often play:

2♦ is a noise: shows nothing at all, except that it denies the ability to make any other bid

2♥/♠ show 4 cards and longer ♦ and extra values... I would evaluate the hand as a King above my minimum playing strength as opener. I would upgrade hands with a partial ♣ fit, for example: possibly leading to a very informative auction such as 1♦ 2♣ 2♠ 2N 3♣... showing a goodish hand with 4=1=5=3 shape and allowing for a good slam on sometimes borderline hcp.

2N is a positive move, with both majors stopped. Bear in mind that I frequently play weak notrump, so then the 2N is bigger than a 1N opening. If playing 15-17 1N, 2N = 13-14. I do not try to hog nt when I open 1♦ with a 3=3=5=2 or 3=3=4=3 11 or 12 count.

3♣ shows real support. If only 3 cards, then real extra values... but with that hand, I may have other bids, so it usually shows 4+ support.

Over my 'noise' 2♦, responder bids naturally. 2 Major is bidding shape, and allows us to back into a 4-4 fit. 2N is forcing (I play 2♣ as unconditionally forcing to game) and allows for natural 3 minor rebids from opener.

[inquiry]

shanbari, on Jul 19 2005, 07:59 PM, said:

ben, do you have the link of what u mentioned above ? thanks,

I will have to look for it, maybe i mis-remembered who played this korkish rebids method i quoted... I did find Fred's treatment for inverted minor raises which you might be interested in... http://forums.bridge...topic=2779&hl=#

In the meanwhile, the method i am attributing to fred (hope i remembered it right), is from Eric Kokish and is frequently called kokish rebids, and can be found here....

http://www.gg.caltec...tem/kokish.html

or as discussed within in this very forum, Kokish rebids after 1D-2C

You may also want to see [http://forums.bridge...post&p=69606]1D - 2C thread[/URL]

[the hog]

Find it hard to believe that some would regard this sequence as not a gf. responder has bid a 2/1, opener has reversed showing considerable extras and you don't want it to be a gf????

If you are playing a pure mafia style this has some logic, I suspect most here are not playing Mafia, perhaps not even Walsh. (AI_U_Card excepted.)

[whereagles]

luis, on Jul 19 2005, 06:01 PM, said:

When 2♣ is GF I like 2♠ to show 4 diamonds and 4 spades exactly. Whenever opener has 5+ diamonds he bids 2♦.

Well, doesn't that get you into the usual problem of 1D-2C-2D = anythng from 11 to 20?

[Al_U_Card]

The_Hog, on Jul 19 2005, 10:51 PM, said:

Find it hard to believe that some would regard this sequence as not a gf. responder has bid a 2/1, opener has reversed showing considerable extras and you don't want it to be a gf????

If you are playing a pure mafia style this has some logic, I suspect most here are not playing Mafia, perhaps not even Walsh. (AI_U_Card excepted.)

Thanks, I appreciate the exception. The reference was for the 1D-2C not being a game force. Using std methods I would expect the 2S rebid to be a "true" reverse and absolutely force the auction to game.....

[shanbari]

inquiry, on Jul 19 2005, 08:26 PM, said:

shanbari, on Jul 19 2005, 07:59 PM, said:

ben, do you have the link of what u mentioned above ? thanks,

I will have to look for it, maybe i mis-remembered who played this korkish rebids method i quoted... I did find Fred's treatment for inverted minor raises which you might be interested in... http://forums.bridge...topic=2779&hl=#

In the meanwhile, the method i am attributing to fred (hope i remembered it right), is from Eric Kokish and is frequently called kokish rebids, and can be found here....

http://www.gg.caltec...tem/kokish.html

or as discussed within in this very forum, Kokish rebids after 1D-2C

You may also want to see [http://forums.bridge...post&p=69606]1D - 2C thread[/URL]

thanks ben, the link is very helpful.

and actually my intension of 1d - 2c is not GF, due to 1D - 3C as 8-10 Diamond raise unbalance hand.

so responder inv. hand has to go through 1d - 2c.
and fred/kokish method doesn't seem to fit in my schema here.

however i found "old Duboin-Bocchi scheme" from Poky, that could work out for me.


1D-2C:
a) GF without 5M
INV with 6C
c) INV with 4+D
d) BAL INV

Development:

1D-2C
2D: 11-15, any 2-suiter or 3-suiter
2♥: one-suiter or 12-14 balanced
2♠: clubs, 16+
2NT: hearts, 16+
3♣: 5D4♠, 16+
3D: 64♠, 15+
3♥: 6D5♠, 14+
3♠: 4450, 15-17

After the potentially weak rebids of 2D and 2♥:
1st step: GF relay
2NT: BAL INV
3C: 6C INV
3D: 4+D INV

===========
with above method, somehow i can stay in 2D/2N/3C partscore contract.
and 44 major fit after opener 2D/2H rebid would still need to be constructed.


Barid Shan