[sceptic]

Scoring: IMP

---

West North East South

 -     -     -     1♥
 Pass  3♦    Pass  3♠
 Pass  4♣    Pass  6♥
 Pass  Pass  Pass  

comments on the 6 heart jump please and anything else that takes your fancy

[Blofeld]

[3♦ was reverse Bergen]

[helene_t]

Not bad, but it only makes because East forgot to double 4♣. So next time, jump to 6♥ immediately.

[coyot]

What does 3♦ promise?

If it is 5-8 with 4card support, I guess a little more asking would be called for. I'd opt for 4♦ and then 4♠ after my p's likely 4♥. This will show enough so that if his clubs are AK or he has ace of diamonds as well to bid slam...

You need something more than a club ace for the slam to make.

Does 4♣ guarantee ace? Wouldn't your p bid it with KQJxx in clubs? (I certainly would if my p pushed me with 3♠.

6♥ straight away is very optimistic - especially given the likely club lead.

[coyot]

helene_t, on Jul 19 2005, 08:21 AM, said:

Not bad, but it only makes because East forgot to double 4♣. So next time, jump to 6♥ immediately.

Bad... club lead will most likely come anyway - opps will hardly lead diamond from ace (or queen, from your point of view).

And, this is a BAD slam - because even on a good lead, it needs diamonds to break 3-3.

Why bid 6♥ on 27-28 HCP without a shortness? No good side suits?

[Gerben42]

I wouldn't have. Cuebid 4♦ to show your interest, this does NOT force partner to ask for aces. He will bid 4♥ with a minimum hand, like here.

[Blofeld]

The lead was actually - of all things - a small ♠.

[FrancesHinden]

It's a dreadful slam.
It would be even worse if partner had a trebleton spade rather than a doubleton.
Recommended auction:

Open 2NT (20-21 or 20-22 balanced)
Responder uses whatever methods you usually use to find the 9 card heart fit and play in 4H.

[coyot]

Yep, sound advice Frances - 2NT openers are fine for this type of hand.

Anyway, I am looking at the bidding AND the forum:
Is Reverse Bergen Beginner and Intermediate Bridge?

[helene_t]

coyot, on Jul 19 2005, 03:48 PM, said:

Anyway, I am looking at the bidding AND the forum:
Is Reverse Bergen Beginner and Intermediate Bridge?

Why shouldn't it be? Reverse Bergen is rather basic, compared to all the exotic stuff played by beginners over here.

Topic: Is this such a bad slam? If East has ♦A it seems to have chances.

But Gerben and Frances are right.

[hrothgar]

9 losers + 5 losers = 14 losers = ~10 tricks

[coyot]

helene_t, on Jul 19 2005, 09:11 AM, said:

coyot, on Jul 19 2005, 03:48 PM, said:

Anyway, I am looking at the bidding AND the forum:
Is Reverse Bergen Beginner and Intermediate Bridge?

Why shouldn't it be? Reverse Bergen is rather basic, compared to all the exotic stuff played by beginners over here.

Topic: Is this such a bad slam? If East has ♦A it seems to have chances.

But Gerben and Frances are right.

OK, I must have my view shifted - I would think that Intermediate bridge would be something along the lines of starting with cue-bids, two-suited overcalls etc , not playing complicated major raises .

Good or bad slam?

If you look at it from double-dummy or combined hands perspective, you could come up with some layouts for defense hands that would work.

But, in order to make this slam, you NEED diamonds 3-3 AND a good lead - location of diamond ace does not matter the slightest bit. Now, the probability of diamonds 3-3 is below the requirements of a good slam - case closed.

From the bidding point of view, this is DEFINITELY a bad slam. I don't want to bash sceptic too much, but Frances and her word "dreadful" hit home.

What do you know from the bidding?

Your side has 26-28 HCP. Your hand contains no shortness and no good side suit. Given the silence of your LHO, it is quite likely that you're not the only one with balanced hand.

I would try to prod my partner with 4♦ to show that if he is really interested in slam, we might try. But I need him to have a really GOOD hand - especially when it comes to shape.

Give him the nice maximum xxx-Jxxx-xx-AKxx and your slam is a confident game with a good chance for overtrick .

[Blofeld]

With a favourable (i.e. non-club) lead you can pick up Ax of ♦ with east, as well.

But I wouldn't call it a good slam.

[mike777]

Agree 2nt.

Reverse Bergen? Seems one more thing to get confused over instead of counting out the hands.

[luis]

I think your bidding was reasonable.

Luis

[coyot]

mike777, on Jul 19 2005, 12:10 PM, said:

Agree 2nt.

Reverse Bergen? Seems one more thing to get confused over instead of counting out the hands.

Yep, that's what I had in mind. If you don't consider your defense play, declarer play and natural bidding (and understanding natural bidding) advanced, you should forget about Reverse Bergen raises and get back to the first bridge book.

I know of many supposedly talented players who took serious damage from not playing simple enough system.
(I'd be the first, having started with a condensed 8page 2/1 Standard... and having fully understood it after about 2 years... (that is, having understood WHY )

I think that for the benefit of readers of this forum, sceptic should take similar problems to advanced/expert forums in order not to scare the beginners

[the hog]

coyot, on Jul 20 2005, 05:43 AM, said:

mike777, on Jul 19 2005, 12:10 PM, said:

Agree 2nt.

Reverse Bergen? Seems one more thing to get confused over instead of counting out the hands.

Yep, that's what I had in mind. If you don't consider your defense play, declarer play and natural bidding (and understanding natural bidding) advanced, you should forget about Reverse Bergen raises and get back to the first bridge book.

I know of many supposedly talented players who took serious damage from not playing simple enough system.
(I'd be the first, having started with a condensed 8page 2/1 Standard... and having fully understood it after about 2 years... (that is, having understood WHY )

I think that for the benefit of readers of this forum, sceptic should take similar problems to advanced/expert forums in order not to scare the beginners

Thats a little unfair. Why can't Wayne and others of his standard start adding a few gadgets? That is really half the fun of the game. Fwiw Wayne, I agree that you should open this 2NT. This solves a heck of a lot of problems - you get your shape and point count across in one bid.

Ron

[coyot]

The_Hog, on Jul 20 2005, 08:49 AM, said:

Thats a little unfair. Why can't Wayne and others of his standard start adding a few gadgets? That is really half the fun of the game. Fwiw Wayne, I agree that you should open this 2NT. This solves a heck of a lot of problems - you get your shape and point count across in one bid.

Ron

Let them start adding gadgets as they want - but don't call it Beginner and Intermediate Bridge. What I mean: Bidding 6♥ on 27-28HCP with no likely source of extra tricks sounds to me like a beginner/intermediate problem - i.e. learn how to count your tricks and what you need to make n tricks. If you're having problems with those concepts, adding gadgets will likely make your bidding worse, not better.

I'm talking from my own experience here. Every gadget is a possible source of extra problems - and if you can't bid right against natural bids, you'll hardly bid right against gadgets .

sceptic:

Quote

I don't belong in advanced forums, so why would I take my problems there.

Questions don't scare beginners I can assure you of that, it is the answers they may get that put a lot off from posting smile.gif

For me, the classification of skills would be:
Novice: understands the concept of "trick", "book" and "bidding" in general, has absorbed the basic rules (leads, following suit, taking tricks, ruffing). First month or three, mostly spent by minibridge.

Beginner: The basic bidding system (up to Stayman, maybe transfers etc.). Starts playing in a local club and later adds Jacoby and Blackwood to his conventions. Signals are something scary and distant at first, a mountain about to climb later. Succesfully struggles with Lavinthal. Takes a few months to get to next level, half-a-year for slower folks.

Intermediate: Learns advanced signalling, importance of count, hold-up play. Discovers that sometimes Third hand high is not right. Learns that it's not the HCP, it's the tricks that count. At this level, he should be into competitive bidding, LOTT, Jacoby 2NT, inverted minors, RKCB.

So, from my point of view, artifical raises such as Bergen are definitively advanced bridge... (Note that some people will spend most of the time in the "advanced" level. I doubt if I will ever consider myself an expert ).

So, if someone comes here to read about beginner and advanced bridge, he'll be baffled. 3♦ is Reverse Bergen? WTH is that? OK, I see he has some hearts, but what does it mean? Is it 8-12, if his partner ended up in 6♥? If this is beginner to intermediate, then my "bridge in 21 days" must be about some other game!

[helene_t]

Reverse Bergen is an extremely simple convention. It may even make bidding theory less complex by taking away those strong jump shifts that nobody knows how to deal with. It may not belong in a beginner's course but the same could be said about 4th best lead, transfers, ace-asking and count signalling. It's just that some marginal conventions are popular among those who write textbooks for beginners and others are not. Matter of taste.

I agree that beginners should not be encouraged to waster there time learning complex conventions, but that's everyone's own choice. A lot of people play strange conventions just because they are fun. Nothing wrong with that.

Anyway, the issue here was the soundness of the jump to 6♥, which is perfectly well placed in the beginner/intermediate forum.

[ochinko]

coyot, on Jul 20 2005, 05:52 PM, said:

Let them start adding gadgets as they want - but don't call it Beginner and Intermediate Bridge.

There's a general perception among the better players in BBO that the more conventions you have mentioned in your profile, the more likely it is that you are Beginner/Intermediate.

I'm not among those players. I'm in the other group (with the loaded profiles).

Petko