[Flame]

btw the result was pretty funny, we had a slam but only 3 got there, we on the other hand got 500, so u might think we got a good score, but no the slam was a grand so everyone in 4H got 510.

[flytoox]

FrancesHinden, on Jul 14 2005, 05:01 PM, said:

In that case it would be very difficult problem.

xxx
K10x
Kxx
AKxx

3S P P x
P ?

If you think that is a "clear pass" your partner had better never, ever double 3S with a void.

In this sequence Pd would never be void in spade. What do you bid except pass? Do you bid 3N, 5C? 4C is a very bad bid I am sure you wont even consider it.

Yes, preempt works. That is why we have to take some sure plus rather than get pushed every time opp preempt us.

[flytoox]

mike777, on Jul 14 2005, 05:13 PM, said:

FrancesHinden, on Jul 14 2005, 12:01 PM, said:

In that case it would be very difficult problem.

xxx
K10x
Kxx
AKxx

3S P P x
P  ?

If you think that is a "clear pass" your partner had better never, ever double 3S with a void.

With that hand I would still take out to 4clubs. Takeout-takeout doubles.
same assumptions. partner is 1444.
still think we can take 10 tricks and opp take 8 or we both take 9.
Preempts work!

4C is a horrible bid. You would bid 4C with xxxx, xx, xx, xxxxx. Would not you? HOw can pd make an intelligent decision if you bid 4C with both hands?

[mike777]

edit, miscount hands.

[flytoox]

4H is so different from 4C. I agree with you that I would bid 4H with xxxx,xxxxx,xx,xx. 4H is a two way bid, you can make or to save. However, 4C accompolishes nothing. As for 5C or pass pd's dbl, it is debatable. My choice is pass, but that is another story.

[HeartA]

Flame, on Jul 14 2005, 02:50 PM, said:

btw the result was pretty funny, we had a slam but only 3 got there, we on the other hand got 500, so u might think we got a good score, but no the slam was a grand so everyone in 4H got 510.

I was going to say 4♠. Well, then I read this result, then my choice looks too good to write ...

[han]

Flytoox, your total tricks analysis is flawed. You should expect more total tricks than total trumps because they have a good long suit.

See Cohen's books for details.

[Winstonm]

flytoox, on Jul 14 2005, 05:44 AM, said:

Looks like LOTT can help us here. OPPs have 8.5 trumps, we have 8 trumps. SO there is total 16.5 tricks. If we can make 4H, then 3S will be down 2.5 tricks. Considering this hand is too balanced, I would expect we can set them 3 tricks.


The more I think of it, the more I believe pass is the right bid.


Correct me if I am wrong.


Hongjun

As a starting point, LOTT assumes partner to be 1444, which means 17 total tricks - the good controls and no wastage makes the deal appear "pure", so it may well be a hand with an "extra" trick making it 18 total. If we can make 10 tricks, the opponents can make either 7 or 8, not enough compensation for our game; if we can make only 9 tricks, they are either down 1 or making, surely too close of call to guage accurately. With the uncertainty and the advantage of playing over defending (Remember, LOTT assumes best defense and play, not always easy to accomplish), I'm pretty certain that even Larry Cohen would bid 4H on these cards.

Winston

[han]

Notice that in actuality there were 19 total tricks. So many that just playing in game was better than defending.

[Flame]

Because i got the bad ressult here, I feel abit out of place to tell you this but i will still say it(because fly is alone fighting here), it looks like many of you doesnt really know how to play match points things said here like "partner's double is for takeout" or "if you pass this then partner should never double with a void" and others are not right for any sort of bridge especially mp. This is a game of chances, we take chance, yes they might make this 3s in our face, but once a friend told me, if you event got a doubled partrscore made in your face then you should seriously check your doubling because you definetly dont double enough.
The basic idea in mp competitive is to double to get a good score, many times double wont get you the best score, but it will give you a good one, illexplain on the actuall hand, we might have 4h, we might have 5h, we might have 6 or 7, we might only have 3, we might belong to 3nt, getting to the right one of those will probebly give us the best score,but when we dont know which one is right its a good idea to double , doubling will probebly give us a better score then all other alternatives, if for example there is 6H we will get a better score then those who didnt get there, if there is only 4/5 heart we will get a better score then anyone who go down in 6 and maybe a better score then those in game (especially if there is 5h to make) double is the flexiable bid, it its very important to use it in any bridge scoring, in mp the minus of double partscore making is not suvire and therefore you must double alot. getting +100 for one down when you have 110 and you could get 200 if you double is very dipressing.
I talked in general so pls dont explain to me that on this hand 4h is better because i agree, but i dont agree on the 4c bid, and not on the general talking.

[whereagles]

Flame, 4H is better because pard seems to have a lightish double (look at your hand - it's a good one). If he's light, having 4 cards in hearts is a certainty and spade singleton very, very likely.

Another reason to bid 4H is because it's easier to play than to defend. Especially if you're tired or are in a bad mood or something.

[MickyB]

My view on the 3334 is that pass or 5♣ could be right. 4♣ could be the winning action but I don't think I'd find it. It is fairly unlikely that we belong in a different strain, short trump hand taking the force and all that. I suspect Frances's issue with Fly's pass was not the pass itself but the statement that it was clearcut. If you are frequently passing on hands with three (or four small) trumps then partner probably should never double on a void, it's pretty likely to get passed out and it will rarely be a good result!

[flytoox]

MickyB, on Jul 15 2005, 09:18 AM, said:

My view on the 3334 is that pass or 5♣ could be right. 4♣ could be the winning action but I don't think I'd find it. It is fairly unlikely that we belong in a different strain, short trump hand taking the force and all that. I suspect Frances's issue with Fly's pass was not the pass itself but the statement that it was clearcut. If you are frequently passing on hands with three (or four small) trumps then partner probably should never double on a void, it's pretty likely to get passed out and it will rarely be a good result!

Yes, while I think pass is clearcut in Frances's example, she think it is difficult choice. I posted the hand to rec.games.bridge. And most posters seem to agree pass is clearcut.


Another difference is with the hand Flame gave here, I think pass or bid 4H is a difficult choice, though now I agree 4H is better. But many posters here think 4H is automatic.


I dont agree your last sentence. Pass with balanced hand will often get you a GOOD, not BAD, result.


I must point out again that in the context, pd will always have at least one spade, if your opps are adv+.

[FrancesHinden]

flytoox, on Jul 15 2005, 04:49 AM, said:

Yes, while I think pass is clearcut in Frances's example, he think it is difficult choice.

She, not he, please.

[flytoox]

FrancesHinden, on Jul 15 2005, 10:02 AM, said:

flytoox, on Jul 15 2005, 04:49 AM, said:

Yes, while I think pass is clearcut in Frances's example, he think it is difficult choice.

She, not he, please.

Sorry, my bad.