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Litmus paper

#1 User is offline   pescetom 

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Posted 2024-October-02, 15:23

A lot of recent discussion about slam investigation, decidedly healthy.

Put your usual (or newly enlightened) vision to the test, how do you start and see things going here (MP, 2/1 GF, 15-17 1NT)?
Assume your favourite agreements, but please spell them out.
Dealt randomly to me last night.


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#2 User is offline   Cyberyeti 

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Posted 2024-October-02, 15:38

4 void splinter, optional voidwood responses.
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#3 User is online   mw64ahw 

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Posted 2024-October-02, 15:54

I have the following choices
  • show my via 1 in a delayed fashion playing KI5
  • respond with 2 as lim+ 4+ asking for hcp strength
  • dive in with 4N showing controls in all suits and odd KCs
  • bid 4 showing a void with control and honour

I'll take the 'bird in hand' and bid 4 given it conveys the most information. Without this I take option 2
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#4 User is offline   mikeh 

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Posted 2024-October-02, 16:16

View PostCyberyeti, on 2024-October-02, 15:38, said:

4 void splinter, optional voidwood responses.

Lol. Optional responses…let me think….what are the chances that partner will,Ike his hand opposite what I assume is usually a good 4H bid with a void in clubs?

I’m not usually a fan of J2N with a side void or with a very good side suit, but here I really don’t see any point in bidding slowly. We’re going to slam….it’s extremely unlikely that it doesn’t have a decent play. x xxxxx Kx xxxxx just needs 2-2 trump!

So 2N for me.

Now, if I played ‘standard’ J2N, I’d spend more time gaming out other options, including starting with 1S, because simple J2N is not a good method. Far too often, when we hold a monster hand that needs information to place the contract, opener has a blah minimum and bids 4H, consuming two levels of bidding space.

But I don’t play standard J2N in either of my partnerships. In my main partnership, 2N is gf and the responses are

3C all minimums that don’t wish they’d not opened….
3D. Extras, 5 card suit
3H. Extras, 6+ suit
3S. A void (doesn’t need extras)
3N. 17+ balanced. (Would lead to a short auction!)
4C/D. Extras, decent 5+ side suit…KJ10xx would be the worst.
4H. I wish I hadn’t opened, probably an aceless 11


Over all 3x responses, I can relay. Thus 1H 2N 3C 3D….3H no shortness, 3S short clubs, 3N short diamonds, etc
'one of the great markers of the advance of human kindness is the howls you will hear from the Men of God' Johann Hari
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#5 User is online   akwoo 

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Posted 2024-October-02, 18:32

I trot out 5, exclusion. I bid 6 opposite no key cards and ask for the queen opposite one. I am going to 7 even if partner doesn't have the king of diamonds, unless the field is terribly weak and I still for some reason care about winning.

If I'm not sure an immediate 5 is exclusion, I trot out 2N, then 5, exclusion. But I'd rather not because partner might bid 4 over 2N.

I thought about actually using some form of Jacoby, but the problem is that you make 7 opposite both x KQJxx xxx KQxx and opposite xxx KQJxx x KQxx.
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#6 User is online   jillybean 

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Posted 2024-October-02, 18:41

Before I read Mike's post....
J2nt

Our responses
3C Min hand w/shortage
3D any hand w/o shortage
3H K more than min, club shortage
3S K more than min diamond shortage
3N K more than min shortage in o/M
"And no matter what methods you play, it is essential, for anyone aspiring to learn to be a good player, to learn the importance of bidding shape properly." MikeH
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#7 User is offline   shyams 

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Posted 2024-October-02, 21:06

5 exclusion KCB.

On rare occasions, we might land up 1 level too high. However, the clarity for partner on what does / does not matter is immense and we will find our grand slams if they exist. IMHO, worth the extreme jump to 5
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#8 User is online   jillybean 

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Posted 2024-October-02, 21:32

Next bid please !
"And no matter what methods you play, it is essential, for anyone aspiring to learn to be a good player, to learn the importance of bidding shape properly." MikeH
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#9 User is offline   thepossum 

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Posted 2024-October-03, 02:53

I considered going straight to splinter but how about 2S followed by splinter
Not really a 2 suiter but fits most requirements
Then one or other starts control bidding and so on
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#10 User is offline   pescetom 

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Posted 2024-October-03, 03:30

View Postshyams, on 2024-October-02, 21:06, said:

5 exclusion KCB.

On rare occasions, we might land up 1 level too high. However, the clarity for partner on what does / does not matter is immense and we will find our grand slams if they exist. IMHO, worth the extreme jump to 5


FWIW I decided the same: if we kept ERKCB on the list of agreements (unlike void splinters) then surely this is the occasion to trot it out.
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#11 User is offline   pescetom 

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Posted 2024-October-03, 04:07

View Postjillybean, on 2024-October-02, 21:32, said:

Next bid please !



After cyberyeti's optional Voidwood, S rebids no interest.

After mw64ahw's 4C void showing, S will rebid a natural 4H if permitted.

After mikeh's asking Jacoby GF, S is on the edge between 3C or 4H.

After jillybean's asking Jacoby, S will rebid 3D = no shortage.

After everybody's 5C Exclusion, S will rebid 5D = 1 keycard.

After thepossum's 2S, S will pass.
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#12 User is offline   Cyberyeti 

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Posted 2024-October-03, 04:19

View Postpescetom, on 2024-October-03, 04:07, said:

Answering on a phone, so bear with my memory.

After cyberyeti's optional Voidwood, S rebids no interest.

After mikeh's asking Jacoby GF, S might rebid either 3C or 4H.

After jillybean's asking Jacoby, S will rebid 3D no shortage.

After everybody's 5C Exclusion, S will rebid 1 keycard.

After thepossum's 2S, S will pass.


Possum is clearly playing a strong jump shift, S will not pass, this was my second choice

After 4 no interest, I would bid 4 "I don't care you have no interest, give me a voidwood response", this is the point, I get to use 4 rather than 5 as voidwood which is not so important here, but might be with other hands.

Over 5 (1) I bid 5 (Q?)
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#13 User is online   mw64ahw 

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Posted 2024-October-03, 04:36

View Postpescetom, on 2024-October-03, 04:07, said:

After cyberyeti's optional Voidwood, S rebids no interest.

After mw64ahw's 4C void showing, S will rebid a natural 4H if permitted.

After mikeh's asking Jacoby GF, S is on the edge between 3C or 4H.

After jillybean's asking Jacoby, S will rebid 3D = no shortage.

After everybody's 5C Exclusion, S will rebid 5D = 1 keycard.

After thepossum's 2S, S will pass.

4 is permitted denying a control.
4 would show a void
Higher bids show a control & KCs
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#14 User is offline   thepossum 

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Posted 2024-October-03, 05:15

Nobody would pass my 2 spades

Look at how much information with 1 bid
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#15 User is offline   shyams 

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Posted 2024-October-03, 05:19

1 - 5
5 - Here I bid 5

If South thinks it is a discouraging bid and passes, I may need a new partner. If instead, South interprets it as a "please evaluate" situation, he can decide what to do next. From partner's perspective, a hand like xx Kxxxx Jxx AKx will be worst whereas one like xx KQxxx Kx Axxx will be best.

EKCB is so rare that I don't think many partnerships will have detailed agreements on follow-ups; I certainly don't.
* If I were South, I'd pass with the first and make a forward-going bid (NOT 6) with the second.
* If South had the Q but no other useful card (outside clubs), I would expect South to raise to 6.

I guess some of the above is influenced by the example North hand above. However, my described choice of action seems logical.
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#16 User is offline   Cyberyeti 

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Posted 2024-October-03, 06:09

View Postshyams, on 2024-October-03, 05:19, said:

1 - 5
5 - Here I bid 5

If South thinks it is a discouraging bid and passes, I may need a new partner. If instead, South interprets it as a "please evaluate" situation, he can decide what to do next. From partner's perspective, a hand like xx Kxxxx Jxx AKx will be worst whereas one like xx KQxxx Kx Axxx will be best.

EKCB is so rare that I don't think many partnerships will have detailed agreements on follow-ups; I certainly don't.
* If I were South, I'd pass with the first and make a forward-going bid (NOT 6) with the second.
* If South had the Q but no other useful card (outside clubs), I would expect South to raise to 6.

I guess some of the above is influenced by the example North hand above. However, my described choice of action seems logical.


How does partner know xx/Jx is good ? AKx is not a bad holding, it's 2 discards, KJxx is really bad
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#17 User is offline   pescetom 

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Posted 2024-October-03, 06:09

View PostCyberyeti, on 2024-October-03, 04:19, said:

Possum is clearly playing a strong jump shift, S will not pass, this was my second choice

I was just kidding to point out the forget risk (especially by me, as I really like a 2S weak response).
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#18 User is offline   pescetom 

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Posted 2024-October-03, 06:10

View Postmw64ahw, on 2024-October-03, 04:36, said:

4 is permitted denying a control.
4 would show a void
Higher bids show a control & KCs

4H it would be, then.
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#19 User is offline   pescetom 

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Posted 2024-October-03, 06:19

View Postshyams, on 2024-October-03, 05:19, said:

1 - 5
5 - Here I bid 5

If South thinks it is a discouraging bid and passes, I may need a new partner. If instead, South interprets it as a "please evaluate" situation, he can decide what to do next. From partner's perspective, a hand like xx Kxxxx Jxx AKx will be worst whereas one like xx KQxxx Kx Axxx will be best.

EKCB is so rare that I don't think many partnerships will have detailed agreements on follow-ups; I certainly don't.
* If I were South, I'd pass with the first and make a forward-going bid (NOT 6) with the second.
* If South had the Q but no other useful card (outside clubs), I would expect South to raise to 6.

I guess some of the above is influenced by the example North hand above. However, my described choice of action seems logical.

If 5H is not discouraging, how do you discourage here?
Our ERKCB follow ups are the same as with RKCB, it's essentially the same convention. So after 5D showing 1 Keycard, 5H is signoff. 5S asks for the Queen and S will bid Specific Kings with the Queen or return to trumps without it.

In this case I bid 5S and S bid 6C, over which I bid 7H.
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#20 User is online   jillybean 

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Posted 2024-October-03, 09:17

Does everyone play 1430 response to exclusion keycard ?
I play 0,1,2 - (edited)



"And no matter what methods you play, it is essential, for anyone aspiring to learn to be a good player, to learn the importance of bidding shape properly." MikeH
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