[kgr]

After multi 2C and multi 2D opening by opps we now play that an immediate double shows the suit (C or D) artificially bid by opps.
But I don't know if that a good treatment. (what do you think?)

bidding below shows that I have to put some defence on paper for my partner (and me). Preferably it should be easy and defence against 2C and 2D shoulf be about the same.

Any suggestions?

=============================
Above question arises from following disaster:
We had this bidding at MP's:
(2♣)-P-(2♦)-P
(2♥)-2NT-(4♥)-All pass

2♣: Multi, both Majors and weak OR something strong.
first P: I did pass waiting to see what happens
2♦: show your best M if weak
2♥: weak Majors with preference for ♥
2NT: I had a balanced hand with 15 HCP and good stops in Majors
4♥: This appeared to be a wild gamble. He had 2 card ♥ and 2 card ♠ and 3 HCP.
My partner did have 13 HCP, but didn't bid because he thought that I should have bid immediatly with 15 HCP and thought now that I had less.
I didn't double because I thought I showed my hand with my 2NT bid.

[Gerben42]

What you should do is to assume that they ALWAYS hold the weak variation (you'll notice that if you want to bid this is true).

Against this 2♣ showing both majors simple and effective is:

Dbl = points
2 of a suit = natural
2NT = good hand, minor-suited takeout (for example ♠x ♥Kxx ♦AQxxx ♣KQxx)

I don't like doubling to show the suit they bid.

I understand your partner, your action playing this defence would be Dbl then pass 2♥ if partner passes.

General defense against all kind of things that do not show the suit bid:
Dbl = points
rest including 2NT = natural

Their suit is known (2♣ = weak ♦ or strong for example): Their suit = take-out, pass than double = penalty.

[coyot]

I'm happy with the approach that immediate bids show something that is either a safe bid or a bid that could not possibly be made later.

I.e. if 2♣ shows majors or strong hands, I can freely bid 3♣ if I have enough clubs and points to be at 3rd level and 2NT with a natural strong NT hand. (16-18?).

Immediate double without a good suit is not a good idea because if the 2♣ was indeed strong, I'm in a big jam now .

2♥ and 2♠ could therefore be played as preempts.

If you have a moderate overcall with major suit, you can freely pass and see what crops up.

Against 2♦ multi (strong or major 6card) things are a little more complicated, because these hands occur much more often than 55 in majors and usually are the weak variant and you want to bid...

If you have spades, you can pass easily because the bidding will go
2♦-p-2♥-p-p- and you can now bid your spades.

If you have hearts, you can pass as well and bid takeout double when the opener corrects 2♥ to 2♠.
Immediate double can be then used with a weak NT.

But there are tons of much more complicated systems against 2♦ multi...
2♣ with majors is less dangerous because if your side has points, you know which suits to avoid. 2♦ Wilkosz is much harder to defend against...

[helene_t]

The problem with playing a dbl as showing the bid minor is that you have limited choices when holding a ballanced hand. If 2NT shows 16-18 you will have to pass with 15 and bid 3NT with 19.

The problem with passing first is that often LHO will raise preemptively to 3♥. Now it's too dangerous to double at the 3-level so you will have to pass again. But partner can have 13-15 points as well, so you may play against 3♥ or 3♠ undoubled while 3NT is cold. Maybe it's your experience that the multi opening is rarely raised preemptively. In that case it's fine to play a dbl as showing the bid minor.

There are many high-tech defences against multi. If you want to keep it simple, you may choose MeckWell defense, which is basically natural with an immediate dbl showing either 13-15 ballanced or some strong hand, say 19+ ballanced or 18+ unballanced and not suitable for a jump overcall. First pass and then 2NT shows both minors.

[FrancesHinden]

Wonderful how Meckwell get their names on things!
Double of a multi showing 13-15 (12-15) balanced or 19+ is called a Dixon double, and has been since before Meckwell had even heard of the multi!

[helene_t]

True, but MeckWell sells better.

Also, we don't call the Stayman convention "The Marx Convention". It would have been imposible, maybe even illegal, to sell books about it during the cold war.

[kgr]

Gerben42, on Jul 13 2005, 02:00 PM, said:

What you should do is to assume that they ALWAYS hold the weak variation (you'll notice that if you want to bid this is true).

Against this 2♣ showing both majors simple and effective is:

Dbl = points
2 of a suit = natural
2NT = good hand, minor-suited takeout (for example ♠x ♥Kxx ♦AQxxx ♣KQxx)

I don't like doubling to show the suit they bid.

I understand your partner, your action playing this defence would be Dbl then pass 2♥ if partner passes.

General defense against all kind of things that do not show the suit bid:
Dbl = points
rest including 2NT = natural

Their suit is known (2♣ = weak ♦ or strong for example): Their suit = take-out, pass than double = penalty.

2NT = good hand, minor-suited takeout

... do you mean:
(2♣)-2NT
or
(2♣)-P-(2♦)-P-(2♥)-2NT 

... and later you say : rest including 2NT = natural

========
Dbl = points : like opening hand (eg 12+)?
2NT natural: eg 15-17 + stoppers?

[P_Marlowe]

helene_t, on Jul 13 2005, 07:20 AM, said:

True, but MeckWell sells better.

Also, we don't call the Stayman convention "The Marx Convention". It would have been imposible, maybe even illegal, to sell books about it during the cold war.

A real pity, but Jack Marx was not very keen
getting into the spot light.

But the name was certainly not the problem, or there
would be no "Marx Brother's movie either.

With kind regards
Marlowe

[Free]

Against multi's, you should asume it's a weak option, since it comes up most of the time anyway.

Against 2♣ I prefer following:

Dbl = ♣ (decent hand)
2♦ = ♦ (decent hand)
2M = 15-17(18)hcp NT, stop in M, asks stop in OM
2NT = 15-17(18)hcp NT, stops in both M

- Passing first and Dbl afterwards is penalties
- Passing first and 2NT is minors


Against 2♦ I prefer following:

Dbl = takeout with 4+♥
2♥ = takeout with 4+♠
2♠ = natural, F1
2NT = 15-17(18)hcp NT, usually with stops

- Passing first and Dbl afterwards is penalties
- Passing first and 2♠ is natural and NF
- Passing first and 2NT is minors

[Echognome]

I think that there are a number of reasonable defenses to the multi. The main thing of course is simply that you have one agreed with your partner.

We play Multi over Multi

X = I have a multi hand myself (either weak 2 in a major) or strong balanced hand
2♥ = Takeout of spades
2♠ = Takeout of hearts
2NT = 16-18 bal
3♣/3♦ = Natural

[inquiry]

Like Matt, I play a version of Multi-over-Multi, but my version is different from his. Here is mine.

or defense against multi, I really enjoy multi-vs-multi. If for no other reason than the fun of alerting the bids (got this from chris rydal’s webpage. The bids go this way....

Them Us (direct seat)
2D ?

1. Dbl shows:
a.) opening hand with hearts, or
b.) opening hand with spades, or
c.) Strong blanced hand (19-21), or
d.) Three suiter with 19+ hcp

2. 2H shows a balanced NT type hand 15-18

3. 2S shows an opening hand with clubs

4. 2N shows an opening hand with diamonds

5. 3C/3D immediately are preemptive

6. 3NT 22+ stoppers in both majors

7. 3H/3S shows major (bid) and unknown minor (funny kind of leaping michaels)

Of course, now you have over the minor transfers, the inbetween bid to show invitational values. If they bid 2H or 2S over a dbl, pass is takeout from both sides of the table, but of course can be left in.

Dixon in other positions.


Against this two club multi-wide ranging thing, this scheme has been only slightly modified. All the bids carry the same meaning, except that we add 2D.

Them Us (direct seat)
2C ?

1. Dbl shows:
a.) opening hand with hearts, or
b.) opening hand with spades, or
c.) Strong blanced hand (19-21), or
d.) Three suiter with 19+ hcp

2. 2H shows a balanced NT type hand 15-18

3. 2S shows an opening hand with clubs

4. 2N shows an opening hand with diamonds

5. 3C/3D immediately are preemptive

6. 3NT 22+ stoppers in both majors

7. 3H/3S shows major (bid) and unknown minor (funny kind of leaping michaels)

8. 2D <<--- Direct seat minor two suiter, weak or strong.

Of course, now you have over the minor transfers, the inbetween bid to show invitational values. If they bid 2H or 2S over a dbl, pass is takeout from both sides of the table, but of course can be left in.

This 2D modification allows advancer to raise when your LHO bids 2H/2S pass correct. I have to admit, I have never faced a multi-2C opening bid while playing with a patner who has agreed to multi-versus-multi, but this works very well against multi-2D.