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Carding Conventions

#1 User is offline   Swammerdam 

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Posted 2024-May-14, 07:41

Hi!

I've been playing at BBO for a while now, but this is my first post here in Discussions.
I was an avid tournament player 55 years ago, and am happy to see I still have enough brain left to play "Advanced" !
One thing is very lucky for me: 55 years ago in the San Francisco area the most common bidding system was almost identical to today's SAYC.
If not for that, I'd have much trouble just bidding!

I have a question about Opening Leads. Specifically second-best leads. Just now my partner led 8 from J8xx and I misread the suit.
Questions:
(1) I don't recall leads of 2nd-best (except MUD from xxx) when I played 55 years ago. Is this a new method?
(2) Are 2nd-best leads (from SOME holdings) standard expert practice these days?

Thanks in advance for any replies.
Swammi
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#2 User is online   P_Marlowe 

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Posted 2024-May-14, 10:01

2/4 is an extension / improved version / modification of MUD.

If you agreed to play MUD, the question is, what do you lead from Hxx.
MUD does not apply.
I came across MUD, when I learned the game, and I learned Acol.
And I was told to lead low, i.e. a very low card indicates a honor,
showing values in the suit lead.

Now you will have some problems reading a lowish middle card.
If you always lead 2nd, you loose the information, that the suit may have
a honor, but you clarify the length. It is a tradeoff.

There is also 3/5.
The downside is, against NT the 3rd highest card may be too valuable.

Some experst play 3/5 against suit, 2/4 against NT.

https://www.bridgeba...-recommand-mud/

But the main thing is, you are able to read the lead.
With kind regards
Uwe Gebhardt (P_Marlowe)
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#3 User is offline   smerriman 

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Posted 2024-May-14, 14:24

As far as I know "2/4" leads have multiple interpretations, but in all of them you lead the 2nd highest from a worthless suit only. So even playing those leads, low is correct from J8xx.

The real explanation is that playing with random partners on BBO, you'll get random leads (as well as random bids and random play). I highly doubt the lead was for any logical reason; the same player led low from 4 with an honor on a previous hand with a previous partner.
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#4 User is offline   Swammerdam 

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Posted 2024-May-15, 08:02

Thanks everyone for the replies! In the casual games I frequently see opening leads like 9 from K9xxx or even J from KJxxx. It's good to know I'm not losing my mind!

I chose a thread title that will allow me to pose other questions and comments about carding. Here's a comment:

On lead holding QJxx it is a matter of partnership agreement whether to lead Q (standard) or J (Rusinow). BUT following 3rd-hand you ALWAYS play the J (unless you're an expert making a clever but very rare false-card). This is NOT a matter of Convention, but logic. Obviously you don't work through the logical argument each time; it's just a simple fact you memorized years ago. I don't even remember how I learned this; presumably it's mentioned prominently in any general textbook.

Yet in the BBO Casual games, players often misplay in such a simple case. Just as frequently, players play the Deuce in situations where they should obviously play a higher card to encourage. Baffling.

These players have profiles pointing to complicated bidding conventions, but know absolutely nothing about carding. As I recall, a large majority of duplicate players 55 years ago knew this basic stuff. But not today at BBO Casual. :huh:
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#5 User is online   P_Marlowe 

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Posted 2024-May-15, 08:30

View PostSwammerdam, on 2024-May-15, 08:02, said:

<snip>
Just as frequently, players play the Deuce in situations where they should obviously play a higher card to encourage. Baffling.

These players have profiles pointing to complicated bidding conventions, but know absolutely nothing about carding. As I recall, a large majority of duplicate players 55 years ago knew this basic stuff. But not today at BBO Casual. :huh:


or they play usually low as encouraging / assuming this without thinking, UDCA.
I would do, but than I would not look too closely at a card played by a random
guy, I have no idea, who he is.
With kind regards
Uwe Gebhardt (P_Marlowe)
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#6 User is offline   helene_t 

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Posted 2024-May-15, 11:12

In England, 2/4 leads means second from a bad suit. Jxxx is a good suit so they should not lead the 8. With T8xx it is maybe 8 against suit and x against notrump. But some play top-of-nothing against notrump so high-low can be xx or xxx or xxxx, or even Hxxxx.

In Poland it is more consistent 2/4 as they also lead low from a doubleton. This means that hi-low shows 3-card suit while low-high could be a doubleton or a 4-card suit. But from Tx or better doubleton they lead high.

In the Netherlands you come across all kind of weird leads, including o/e leads! But one fairly common agreement is top from doubleton, MUD and lowest from a strong suit. So low-high can be xxx or Hxx(x)(x).
The world would be such a happy place, if only everyone played Acol :) --- TramTicket
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