[Cyberyeti]

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South deals, nobody vul

How do you bid these, and where do you want to end up ?

[DavidKok]

In standard systems I'd have the simple auction:

1♦-1♠;
4♥ (splinter, can be a singleton) - 4NT (RKC 1430);
5NT (even KC + a void) - 6♠

East may choose to try for more, but I don't like gambling for a grand slam. The splinter consumed a lot of bidding space, and from North's perspective we may even be missing the ♠Q or ♣K, while asking for them risks getting too high.

I play a bunch of more complicated systems that would deal with this differently, saving space.

Somebody is probably going to comment on the value of splitting void and singleton splinters. I think on this hand it doesn't matter. With prime cards and a nice hand North will always push past game even facing a possible singleton. Showing the void more cheaply only gains if the resulting decisions are different, which is sometimes but I think not this time.


Looking at both hands I think I'm happy to be in 6♠. 7 seems challenging to me - I can try to get rid of the hearts by pitching one on a club, two on the diamonds (if they break 4-2) and ruff two, but that means I have comminucation problems (especially on a club lead). Maybe 7 is better anyway, my rule of thumb is that a grand needs to be 75% chance to make to be good and I think it's not too far off as we can fall on backup plans if my main route fails. But 6 is much cosier.

[Cyberyeti]

I wasn't thinking of bidding the grand, the question is how good the small slam is, on a heart lead, you have potential entry issues.

Also we had a system quirk that massively altered our auction.

Since 1♦-1♠-2♦-2♥ would be a relay showing a better hand, partner started with 1♥.

[DavidKok]

 Cyberyeti, on 2024-May-12, 02:40, said:

I wasn't thinking of bidding the grand, the question is how good the small slam is, on a heart lead, you have potential entry issues.

It's definitely not laydown, but I think I do want to be in slam at least.

 Cyberyeti, on 2024-May-12, 02:40, said:

Also we had a system quirk that massively altered our auction.

Since 1♦-1♠-2♦-2♥ would be a relay showing a better hand, partner started with 1♥.

I'm sorry but this is just wrong. I also play "3rd suit game forcing", but it's not like 1♦-1♥; 2♦-2♠ is weak. Showing the hearts first caters to opener having four spades, but (current deal notwithstanding) that's improbable. Some people play a version of UMJOODO to address this issue. My own unbalanced diamond structure solves this in a different way. But either way I would not start by bidding the hearts. Early rounds of the auction come up more often than later ones, so changing early rounds to cater to specific rebid issues on later rounds is not great. You lose out most of the time when partner makes a different rebid from the one you masterfully attempted to avoid.
3rd suit GF saves space on the 1m-1M; 2m-2[m+1] auction by asking for more information, but in return you lose the ability to show a weak-ish M&[m+1] hand cheaply. I would very much put the costs of this on the second round, or artificially cater to them by reserving a jump bid the first round, rather than making off-shape first round bids.

[Cyberyeti]

 DavidKok, on 2024-May-12, 02:57, said:

I'm sorry but this is just wrong. I also play "3rd suit game forcing", but it's not like 1♦-1♥; 2♦-2♠ is weak. Showing the hearts first caters to opener having four spades, but (current deal notwithstanding) that's improbable. Some people play a version of UMJOODO to address this issue. My own unbalanced diamond structure solves this in a different way. But either way I would not start by bidding the hearts. Early rounds of the auction come up more often than later ones, so changing early rounds to cater to specific rebid issues on later rounds is not great. You lose out most of the time when partner makes a different rebid from the one you masterfully attempted to avoid.
3rd suit GF saves space on the 1m-1M; 2m-2[m+1] auction by asking for more information, but in return you lose the ability to show a weak-ish M&[m+1] hand cheaply. I would very much put the costs of this on the second round, or artificially cater to them by reserving a jump bid the first round, rather than making off-shape first round bids.

We play 2♠ as 5-5 weak (and 2♥ as inv+ not GF), partner would have raised hearts with 3 in an unbalanced hand unless he had a LOT of diamonds, so can pass 2♠ with a bad hand. Also partner doesn't have a weak no trump and doesn't have clubs, so either has 4 spades or 6+ diamonds.

[nullve]

 Cyberyeti, on 2024-May-12, 03:07, said:

We play 2♠ as 5-5 weak (and 2♥ as inv+ not GF), partner would have raised hearts with 3 in an unbalanced hand unless he had a LOT of diamonds, so can pass 2♠ with a bad hand. Also partner doesn't have a weak no trump and doesn't have clubs, so either has 4 spades or 6+ diamonds.

I don't see anything wrong with this if combined with something like weak jump shifts. Actually, I'd even go further and respond 1♥ also with 5S4H and less than INV values.

[Cyberyeti]

 nullve, on 2024-May-12, 06:28, said:

I don't see anything wrong with this if combined with something like weak jump shifts. Actually, I'd even go further and respond 1♥ also with 5S4H and less than INV values.

That has the problem that if 3361/5404 you play the 4-3 instead of the 5-3 if you respond 1♥. We don't play WJS, we have to play 3♥ or 2♦ rather than 2♥ (1♦-1♥-2♦-2N is bad hand with long hearts)

[mw64ahw]

Playing my Esoteric unbalanced ♦!

1♦-1♥ either or both Majors 5-10
1♠ 3+ unlimitted-3♣ 5+♠ strong mixed raise; shape + usually 3 ctrls

at this stage openers shape and controls are good enough to push for slam despite less than a combined 26hcp.

3♥ shortage-3N weak ♠ suit
4♥ void - 4♠ missing ctrl(s)
4N 2KCs ♣ & ♦ ctrls-6♠ all non ♥ KCs no Q♠

[Cyberyeti]

Our auction was

1♦-1♥
1♠-3♠
4♣-4♠
6♠

I was expecting something more like KJ10x, QJxx(x), xx(x), Ax(x). When partner didn't cue hearts I fancied my chances

[pescetom]

We too splinter at 3 level here and so we may end up in grand, as the non-serious is more about spades suit quality and South already knows that:

1D 1S
3H 3N (!serious)
4C 4N (even)
5D 5N (!Q)
6D 7C
7S P

With North having denied first level hearts control, his even keycards can only be the clubs ace and trump king.

[Cyberyeti]

Double dummy you can make 7♠, but in practice I don't think you do.

The E hand is J97, KQJxx, QJx, xx so the double dummy solver will play a diamond to the 10.

[pescetom]

Cyberyeti, on 2024-May-13, 03:47, said:

Double dummy you can make 7♠, but in practice I don't think you do.

The E hand is J97, KQJxx, QJx, xx so the double dummy solver will play a diamond to the 10.

Our auction pinpointed AK diamonds in South and so an attentive East would avoid leading the Q and duck the 6, in which case I think I'm down on this layout.

It's not a great grand to be in, especially at MP. One of the downsides of splintering by opener is uncertainty about responder's effective strength, and our choice of orienting non-serious to trump suit quality doesn't help here either. Ideally I guess non-serious would always be about what partner needs to know in the context, but that is asking a lot of a partnership.

[mikeh]

It can sometimes help if one can differentiate between a singleton splinter and a void splinter. For me, 1D 1S 4H is void, 3H is stiff, so we’d have a slight edge. On this hand it may not matter because I don’t think north should look for grand no matter what.

Again, methods matter. For example, I play that 1D 1S 4C/D both show 4=6 hands with the playing strength to risk game, with 4C being a strong 4=6 and 4D being, in context, weaker. We don’t splinter with these hands because we want partner to be able to visualize a source of tricks in diamonds, if he has a useful holding.

So for me, 4H is not only a void but pretty much telegraphs the shape. More importantly, responder won’t be able to say ‘hey, I may be able to set up 5 diamond winners to take care of the hearts I can’t ruff.

On this hand, expecting a trump lead, responder can picture some communication issues. The stiff club ace is good but it’s actually a blocking card. We almost surely can’t both ruff hearts in dummy and set up and run the diamonds (of course, his diamonds might be very strong, but we’ve zero assurance of that…AQxx void AQxxx KQxx is definitely possible. So while moving towards slam seems correct, moving towards grand doesn’t, unless partner is able to take charge at some point.

All of that is even more apposite if 4H would usually be a stiff (hands with a stiff splinter are significantly more likely than those with a void). Worth a slam try, not worth interest in grand.

[nullve]

Cyberyeti, on 2024-May-12, 02:04, said:

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South deals, nobody vul

How do you bid these, and where do you want to end up ?

nullve(S)-nullve(N):

1♦(1)-1♥(2)
1N(3)-2♣(4)
3♠(5)-4♣(6)
4♦(7)-4N(8)
5♣(9)-5♦(10)
6♣(11)-6♦(12)
6♥(13)-6♠(14)
P

(1) "10+, NATish unBAL" OR "20-22 BAL"
(2) "0+, (3)4+ S, may have longer H if < GF"*
(3) Gazzilli-variant: a) 9-14, 5D5C2-S b) "10-12", 6+D2-S3-H c) "16-18, < 4 H unless 4 S" d) "20-22 BAL"
(4) GF opposite c) or d), relay
(5) 16-18, either 4153 or 4054
(6) slam try not in C or D
(7) 4054
(8) Parity key card ask agreeing S
(9) even # of key cards
(10) trump Q ask
(11) trump Q, ♦K, ♣K, no ♦Q
(12) ♣Q ask
(13) no ♣Q
(14) contract

* A little bit like what Cyberyeti plays but with majors reversed