[MickyB]

My 2 cents - yes you might get more penalties with 13-15 bal, but you'll also get redoubled and miss your fit if you don't have a sensible way to run. Is this where I mention Lionel?

[FrancesHinden]

MickyB, on Jul 11 2005, 11:43 AM, said:

I know that when I first psyche a strong NT in 3rd seat, it will go P-3NT-P-P-X so I guess I should make sure I have a run-out suit!

They don't double that auction on a balanced 16-count because you could easily be making, or have a long suit.

[Chamaco]

badderzboy, on Jul 11 2005, 10:53 AM, said:

Playing in the UK I face the weak NT and hate passing with a balanced hand over a 1NT opener.

I've looked at various defences and they all look great in certain circumstances so I started thinking what would require the least memory load?

Why not treat bids by the defence as the same as if partner had opened 1NT but with an adjusted point count. IE if opps open 1NT (12-14) then ptr on average has 9pts ((40-13)/3)) so pretend he has a balanced 8-10 NT range.

Bids in 2nd/3rd seat therefore promise about 12-15 pts...

X - 16+ - ptr with weak hand 0-4 escapes with natural bids.
2C - staymanish at least 4-4 in majors or if 1 4card major a 5 card minor (over 2D response bid the minor at 3 level)
2D - Tfr to H good 5 or 6 card suit
2H - Tfr to S good 5 or 6 card suit
2S - shows balanced 14-15 pt hand no 4 card major
2NT - tfr to clubs good 6/7 card suit
3C - tfr to Diamonds good 6/7 card suit

Partner with a better hand can break the transfer with a NT bid showing 2 or fewer cards in the transfer suit but 11+pts so we then show our next best suit and so on or super accept with a new suit?

Bids in 4th Seat are the same except dbl is 13+ with the same get-outs?

Feel free to shoot the idea down in flames

Steve

You may want to try the same scheme with:

2C = Landy-Style
2D, 2H = xfers
2S = 4S + longer minor
2NT = minors
3m = long minor + 4H

Using this scheme you have to put the minor one suiter into X and or 2C

Alternatively,

X = always balanced hand, minimax (say 15-17 / 20+)
2C = Landy OR 4M+ longer minor
2D = Multi (single suiter or 18-19 bal)
2M = natural
2NT = minors
3X = Natural single suiter, reverse

[Chamaco]

luis, on Jul 11 2005, 08:51 PM, said:

I think it may be good to invert the meanings of double and 2♠. I think you will be able to penalize 1Nt more if you double with 13-15 balanced (no major) instead of 16+. And if it's not your hand you can escape to 2x.

I agree partially:

I would use DBL = 16+ (or 15+) in direct seat, but 13-15 in balancing seat.

This way, one could pass 13-15 balanced hands in direct seat without fearing being stolen, as pard would reopen in the balancing seat.

On the other hand, this would avoid the risks of bidding with 13-15 in direct seat when LHO can trap us into a doubled partscore.

[keylime]

I play a 10-12 NT myself, and I think a highly constructive approach is the only way to combat it - flying into the auctions are bound to go bigtime minus.

[1eyedjack]

keylime, on Jul 12 2005, 04:31 PM, said:

I play a 10-12 NT myself, and I think a highly constructive approach is the only way to combat it - flying into the auctions are bound to go bigtime minus.

I have to agree with these sentiments.

There is I think a psychological effect in force based on geography. It is my observation that when you use a weak (or even weaker) 1NT opener against players born and bred on the strong 1N, who rarely encounter the weak version either in their opponents or partners, they automatically feel that they must have been talked out of something and feel duty bound to ensure that opener does not "get away" with such outrageous shenanigans. Leaving them to stew in 1N is not an option.

In my neck of the woods I hardly ever came across the strong 1N until I started playing online, and locally some simple principles have evolved that have pretty universal acceptance: If you have a balanced hand you probably want to defend (unless your partner shows some shape). If you are strong you probably want to double. If you are distributional you probably still want a bit of strength to bid in case partner also has some values and wants to investigate game. But within those constraints having some 2-suited structure is a good idea. Finita la musica.

[luke warm]

oh what the hell, i'll toss this one out.. it's attributed to bridge world in the 70s, but i can't vouch for that.. also, it was originally intended for use after a strong nt but i like it over weak also

x = ♣ & ♦ or ♦ only OR rounded OR pointed
2♣ = ♦ and ♥ or ♥ only
2♦ = ♥ & ♠ or ♠ only
2♥ = ♠ & ♣ or ♣ only
2♠ = 3 suited with ♠
2nt = 3 suited without ♠

[mrsock]

badderzboy, on Jul 11 2005, 06:53 PM, said:

Bids in 2nd/3rd seat therefore promise about 12-15 pts...

X - 16+ - ptr with weak hand 0-4 escapes with natural bids.
2C - staymanish at least 4-4 in majors or if 1 4card major a 5 card minor (over 2D response bid the minor at 3 level)
2D - Tfr to H good 5 or 6 card suit
2H - Tfr to S  good 5 or 6 card suit
2S - shows balanced 14-15 pt hand no 4 card major
2NT - tfr to clubs good 6/7 card suit
3C - tfr to Diamonds good 6/7 card suit

Partner with a better hand can break the transfer with a NT bid showing 2 or fewer cards in the transfer suit but 11+pts so we then show our next best suit and so on or super accept with a new suit?

I don't see the benefit of transfer overcalls here .. aren't you just going to give your opponents an easy ride? LHO could double your transfer bid with general values, or bid your anchor suit as takeout, or he could wait and double on the next round to mean something else.

Usually transfer bids are used to cover a wide range of hands, some of which will pass a completed transfer, while others will continue bidding. But in your suggested structure, the major-suited overcalls are so well defined that the overcaller isn't going to want to bid again. The exception may be if his partner has a strong hand or a hand with a lot of trumps, and in either of these cases partner will bid.

On this forum there have been loads of discussions over whether weak-NT players should play takeout or penalty doubles in competitive auctions (i think takeout is winning). But those who play takeout doubles will sometimes miss the chance to take a big penalty from a natural overcall of 1NT, depending on how the trumps are split. Under your proposed structure, your opponents shouldn't have any difficulty penalising you whenever you hit a misfit, however the trumps are split?

I'd suggest using natural 2♥ and 2♠ overcalls, and giving a 2♦ overcall the current meaning of 2♠, although as someone else suggested it may well work out better to pass with these hands.

[Winstonm]

My advice here is to not go out of your way to find a great defense against a weak NT but instead acknowledge that at times it is a superior approach that will cause you problems; instead, concentrate on taking advantage of the flaws inherent in weak NT in that strong NTs must be opened 1C/1D most of the time - get in your lead directing overcalls often and use Rozencranz doubles after these bids. This way, you'll be able to direct the defense against NT in ways that cannot be accomplished over a strong 1N opening. Same idea I think should be used against strong clubs - take advantage of what their system gives you.

WinstonM