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1C-1D-2NT-3S another precision question

#1 User is offline   Shugart23 

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Posted 2024-March-25, 07:57

Thanks for indulging me.......This is really 3 questions in one... Consider 3 bidding sequences : 1NT -2S; 1C-1D-1NT-2S; 1C-1D-2NT-3S In the two sequences where 2S is bid, do these have the same basic meanings in your system. In the sequence where 3S is bid, is there similarity between 3S in this sequence to the 2S in the other two sequences ? Thank you
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#2 User is offline   mw64ahw 

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Posted 2024-March-25, 08:25

This depends on the definition of the NT bid as you can have different meanings for these after 1, but I think in practice they are probably all different
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#3 User is offline   Shugart23 

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Posted 2024-March-25, 08:44

View Postmw64ahw, on 2024-March-25, 08:25, said:

This depends on the definition of the NT bid as you can have different meanings for these after 1, but I think in practice they are probably all different


1NT shows 13-15

1C-1D-1NT shows 16-18

1C-1D-2NT shows 22-23

what is your definition for 2S in the first two cases,and 3S in the 3rd ?
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#4 User is offline   mw64ahw 

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Posted 2024-March-25, 10:27

For the first option I use 2 as a transfer to s, could be xx55 or xx46, but with the 2nd you are now reduced to 6+4, not slam invitational in my case.
I have a different purpose for 2NT so not applicable for me, but I guess it would be SI in s if I did.-
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#5 User is offline   straube 

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Posted 2024-March-25, 11:37

View PostShugart23, on 2024-March-25, 08:44, said:

1NT shows 13-15

1C-1D-1NT shows 16-18

1C-1D-2NT shows 22-23

what is your definition for 2S in the first two cases,and 3S in the 3rd ?


I like 2S as size ask or club bust or other things.

1C-1D, 2N-3S can be a puppet to 3N and then 4m is slam try in the minor while 4M is short the M with both minors. This leaves 1C-1D, 2N-3N as 5S/4H if you can remember that.

I'm sure there is better, but both of these have a following.
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#6 User is offline   foobar 

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Posted 2024-March-25, 12:06

View Poststraube, on 2024-March-25, 11:37, said:

I like 2S as size ask or club bust or other things.

1C-1D, 2N-3S can be a puppet to 3N and then 4m is slam try in the minor while 4M is short the M with both minors. This leaves 1C-1D, 2N-3N as 5S/4H if you can remember that.

I'm sure there is better, but both of these have a following.

+1 to most of the above, but the 5S-4H treatment sounds like a footgun that's best avoided
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#7 User is offline   mycroft 

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Posted 2024-March-25, 13:33

There are reasons to have things different, but my memory isn't good enough. So, I play my xNT opener system over 1-1; xNT.

So, yes, the first two, it has the same meaning (whatever that is (*)). I think I played 4-way transfers in my Precision partnerships, and while I may have concerns about it, it works.

1-1; 2NT-3 should be the same meaning as 2NT-3, whatever that is (**). Sure, there won't be many slam invitations with 23 opposite 7, but oh well. How often will this auction come up, and will you forget the "special case" that is marginally (or even largely) better than "same as" (frankly, how often do 2NT-auctions come up? Are you confident you'll remember that system? Are you confident that, if it's different from 1-1; 2NT, you'll still remember it?)

I would argue that if you play 1-; 1 Birthright style (hearts or big balanced, almost forcing 1), that your 1NT and 2NT "eventuals" also play the same system. There's a reason the ACBL CCs and Alert Procedures define "Opening NT Sequence".

And yeah, 2NT-3NT is a footgun, but I play it because "everybody" in my area plays it. I know it as "the most dangerous convention in bridge", and I always loved the (at the time pro player) explanation that in their system, 2NT-3NT; any-4NT was *written in the notes* as "I forgot again, partner, I wanted to play 3NT". It does solve a very big problem (at the expense of the footgun, and the "lead a spade" double).

(*) Unless it "can't exist". That range ask is a bit scary, with 16-18 opposite good 6-7. Yet another reason I would go with the more modern people who put the flat 16s into 1NT, and 1 balanced is minimum 17. The big other being "are you sure you want flat 16 opposite boring 8 to be in game? If not, what sequences can you get out, and are they worth losing 'everything but 1 is GF'?"
(**) Unless 2NT isn't "big balanced". Which, for at least one of my partnerships, it wasn't (4-8 NV, 8-12 V, 5-5 minors).
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#8 User is offline   Cyberyeti 

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Posted 2024-March-25, 14:34

View PostShugart23, on 2024-March-25, 08:44, said:

1NT shows 13-15

1C-1D-1NT shows 16-18

1C-1D-2NT shows 22-23

what is your definition for 2S in the first two cases,and 3S in the 3rd ?

We don't play 4 suit transfers so:

To 1N we play 2 as weak with one minor or GF with both

To 1-1-1N we theoretically play the same but in practice it's the weak option

To 2N we play GF one minor or both
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#9 User is offline   Shugart23 

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Posted 2024-March-25, 15:27

View Postmycroft, on 2024-March-25, 13:33, said:

There are reasons to have things different, but my memory isn't good enough. So, I play my xNT opener system over 1-1; xNT.

So, yes, the first two, it has the same meaning (whatever that is (*)). I think I played 4-way transfers in my Precision partnerships, and while I may have concerns about it, it works.

1-1; 2NT-3 should be the same meaning as 2NT-3, whatever that is (**). Sure, there won't be many slam invitations with 23 opposite 7, but oh well. How often will this auction come up, and will you forget the "special case" that is marginally (or even largely) better than "same as" (frankly, how often do 2NT-auctions come up? Are you confident you'll remember that system? Are you confident that, if it's different from 1-1; 2NT, you'll still remember it?)

I would argue that if you play 1-; 1 Birthright style (hearts or big balanced, almost forcing 1), that your 1NT and 2NT "eventuals" also play the same system. There's a reason the ACBL CCs and Alert Procedures define "Opening NT Sequence".

And yeah, 2NT-3NT is a footgun, but I play it because "everybody" in my area plays it. I know it as "the most dangerous convention in bridge", and I always loved the (at the time pro player) explanation that in their system, 2NT-3NT; any-4NT was *written in the notes* as "I forgot again, partner, I wanted to play 3NT". It does solve a very big problem (at the expense of the footgun, and the "lead a spade" double).

(*) Unless it "can't exist". That range ask is a bit scary, with 16-18 opposite good 6-7. Yet another reason I would go with the more modern people who put the flat 16s into 1NT, and 1 balanced is minimum 17. The big other being "are you sure you want flat 16 opposite boring 8 to be in game? If not, what sequences can you get out, and are they worth losing 'everything but 1 is GF'?"
(**) Unless 2NT isn't "big balanced". Which, for at least one of my partnerships, it wasn't (4-8 NV, 8-12 V, 5-5 minors).


Thanks.....

Yes, I play Birthright style, but never knew that is what it is called. Is that against ACBL rules ?

16 opposite'boring' 8 we stop at 2NT... We can stop because after the 1C bidder hears a positive response, if he ever bids 2NT he is telling partner he has bad 16 and turns the captaincy over to him. With flat bad boring 8, partner will pass.

. Our 2NT opening shows both minors2NT-3S is an 'ask'

Thanks for your note I will study it
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#10 User is offline   mycroft 

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Posted 2024-March-26, 08:32

Okay.

Birthright - from what I see on the Other Site, this is what Kokish wanted it to be called. I keep hearing it as "Kokish 2" (to go along with Kokish Game Tries and...) EOK is a fellow Canuck, I'll try to follow his wishes. But if you explain 1-1; 1 as Kokish (not to the opponents! In the bar!) people will know what you mean.

I am biased. But so are all the Precision books I've read for the last 20 years. So I play 2 promises 6 and 1 balanced is minimum 17. It just makes the further auctions easier. It does mean a 14-16 NT that is somewhat anti-field, but no more so than 13-15...

So, I'd definitely look for a decent 2NT response structure. It won't come up often, but it's big when it does. I would definitely look at avoiding "the most dangerous convention in bridge" if it only comes up with 22+BAL.

As far as legality, even on the Basic Chart, "Beginning with the Opening Bidder’s second call, all calls are allowed by both pairs."
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#11 User is offline   blackshoe 

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Posted 2024-April-10, 23:09

For me, playing Standard Modern Precision pretty much by the book, 1NT is 14-16, 1-1-1NT is 17-18, 2NT is 19-20, and 1-1-2NT is 21-23-. In the first two sequences 2 is the range ask or clubs, in the second two it's either Minor Suit Stayman or undefined, depending on partner.

Just for completeness, 1-1Major-1NT is 11-13. Over this we play XYNT.
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