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1D - anything 1NT -? easy Precision question

#1 User is offline   Shugart23 

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Posted 2024-March-23, 10:32

Apologies, but it's been a long time since I played Precsion. When you open 1D and partner responds 1H or 1S and you respond 1NT, are you promising a 4333 or 4432 or 5332 shape with say good 10-12 HCPs (Assume your 1NT opening is 13-15 and you don't have 4 cards in partners Major)). Are systems on for partner ?
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#2 User is online   DavidKok 

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Posted 2024-March-23, 11:58

It is common to play a form of checkback here, in particular XYNT, new minor forcing or checkback stayman. I think better schemes exist but XYNT (or XYZ, the more general version - though they coincide on this auction) is popular.
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#3 User is offline   P_Marlowe 

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Posted 2024-March-23, 12:45

View PostShugart23, on 2024-March-23, 10:32, said:

Apologies, but it's been a long time since I played Precsion. When you open 1D and partner responds 1H or 1S and you respond 1NT, are you promising a 4333 or 4432 or 5332 shape with say good 10-12 HCPs (Assume your 1NT opening is 13-15 and you don't have 4 cards in partners Major)). Are systems on for partner ?

I dont play Precision, but if I would, and if I played a 1NT opening as 13-15, I would

#1 Bid 1NT, even bypassing spades
#2 Use the same structure after the 1NT rebid, as after the 1 NT opening

I would also include the same distributions in the rebid as I would in the opening, i.e. certain 5422 shapes are possible,
unless you agree to play a structure, that allowes the partner of the NT bidder to extract the specific shape of the NT bidder,
... and some shapes are breaking those schemes.

Just to reduce the memory load, and it increases the chance, to let the stronger side play the major suit contracts.
If you play Stayman, you could use a mod. response structure, a 2H answer showing 4 spades. ... Obviously this runs contra
the goal of minimizing memory load, but than 2H is a wakeup call, having denied 4 hearts.

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With kind regards
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#4 User is online   PrecisionL 

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Posted 2024-March-23, 13:29

Longtime Precision player here: I always rebid 1NT without a singleton. Also some 2-2-4-5 / 2-2-5-4 hands also rebid 1NT.

Thus, 1M rebid is some 4441 or 5422 / 5431 hand with most of the honors in the long suits.

Edit: 3/24/24 - Yes, checkback Stayman is a required convention playing a 1NT rebid may bypass a 4-cd Major.
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#5 User is offline   Shugart23 

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Posted 2024-March-24, 06:25

Thanks guys. I had completely forgotten about XYZ, David. Thanks for shaking loose some of my cobwebs. I haven't played bridge in 4 years and haven't played precision in 7 and I've lost braincells in the meantime. I've been teaching my son that his NT openings need to be 4333, 4432, or any 5332 shape and to be rigorous about that. I'm thinking I am safe telling him the same should hold true for 1D -1M -1NT ( and then I'll go down the XYZ path once he is ready). What do you think Precision L ?
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#6 User is offline   mycroft 

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Posted 2024-March-24, 09:12

In Precision, the 2=2=(45) hands are ugly. You have to open them 1 if you're not bidding NT, and if you have to rebid and 1NT is not available, you bid 2 either way. Now, this isn't an awful sequence, partner does know what to do, but depending on what other hands go into this sequence (but you're (re)bidding NT on any 5332, so you don't have those hands) the "doesn't encourage a preference" nature of this auction can be self-limiting. Plus, of course, you're playing in a minor at MPs when you could be playing 1NT.

It is arguable that these minor-Flannery hands (or specific ones, say the 2=2=5=4) should also (re)bid 1NT to make the 1-1M; 2 auction more comfortable.

Even if not XYZ, some Checkback Stayman (I mean NMF, but what is the NM?) variety is essential. As it is Checkback Stayman, it's easy to teach and remember, if you're playing Stayman over NT openings.
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#7 User is offline   foobar 

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Posted 2024-March-24, 09:33

View PostShugart23, on 2024-March-23, 10:32, said:

Apologies, but it's been a long time since I played Precsion. When you open 1D and partner responds 1H or 1S and you respond 1NT, are you promising a 4333 or 4432 or 5332 shape with say good 10-12 HCPs (Assume your 1NT opening is 13-15 and you don't have 4 cards in partners Major)). Are systems on for partner ?


A related question here is how to handle 1=4=(53), 0=4=(54) and 1=4=4=4 hands after 1 - 1, and whether bidding 1N is permissible on some of those hand types. The easiest option might be say that the rebid of 2 shows 4+ (so 2 shows 5+).


On an orthogonal note, I think that using 1 as 0+ (basically Raptor OR balanced outside NT range; not one or two suited in a minor) and folding the 4=4=0=5 an 4=4=1=4 hands into it is a better option.
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#8 User is offline   Shugart23 

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Posted 2024-March-24, 10:10

View Postfoobar, on 2024-March-24, 09:33, said:

A related question here is how to handle 1=4=(53), 0=4=(54) and 1=4=4=4 hands after 1 - 1, and whether bidding 1N is permissible on some of those hand types. The easiest option might be say that the rebid of 2 shows 4+ (so 2 shows 5+).


On an orthogonal note, I think that using 1 as 0+ (basically Raptor OR balanced outside NT range; not one or two suited in a minor) and folding the 4=4=0=5 an 4=4=1=4 hands into it is a better option.


I guess I need to think on it a bit more whether to restrict the 1D-1M-1NT to show the 4333,4432, or 5332 hands only. (With regards to the 3 suited hands, I toss them into the 2D opening bid ) .

I'll have to mull over what the universe of hand types 1D-1M-2C and 1D-1M-2D bids each contain . Thanks.
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#9 User is online   DavidKok 

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Posted 2024-March-24, 10:42

Since it's on topic:

Dealing with the nebulous diamond (mostly in competition, but also on some uncontested sequences) is one of the key design pillars of Precision systems. In a relatively standard "2+ 1" the rebid structure on 1-1 is likely going to look something like:
  • 1NT: 11-13 Bal, at most 3 spades.
  • 2: 11-15 at least 54 in the minors (either way).
  • 2: 11-13 6(+) or 45 minimum.
  • 2: Unclear but perhaps 14-15 5(+)4 maximum(?).
  • 2: Simple raise, 11-13 ish. May be a three card suit.
  • 2NT: 13-15 6(+)3.
  • 3: 13-15 55 (or longer).
  • 3: 13-15 6(+)2(-).
  • 3: -
  • 3: 13-15 45(+)m.

Within this context there are hands that struggle to find a home. For example, 1=4=3=5 has no bid in the scheme I wrote up. You might decide to put this in 1NT, but what if you have 14-15 HCP with this shape? Are you committed to opening this 1NT with that strength regardless of texture? Also the 2 rebid is nebulous already, and would become even more so if more hand types are included. And the 2 rebid might leave partner in an awkward position, going past 2.

There are several routes to go from here. For example, permitting the 1NT rebid with problem hands (notably: semibal with a singleton or doubleton spade) helps, but it goes hand in hand with opening those same shapes with 1NT on the previous round with a king extra. Conversely putting more hands in the 2 rebid or 2 simple raise can take some of the strain, but this leaves partner more poorly placed when these auctions come up. Whichever approach you end up taking there will be some costs. Personally I recommend the 'balanced-or-Raptor' 1 and I think it incurs minor costs for major benefits, but this would be a noticeable change to the full system.
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#10 User is offline   blackshoe 

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Posted 2024-April-10, 23:18

View Postmycroft, on 2024-March-24, 09:12, said:

Even if not XYZ, some Checkback Stayman (I mean NMF, but what is the NM?) variety is essential. As it is Checkback Stayman, it's easy to teach and remember, if you're playing Stayman over NT openings.

To me, "Checkback Stayman" means using 2 over a 1NT rebid to ask for clarification of opener's major suit holdings. "Two-Way Checkback Stayman" means using 2 in that way with invitational hands, and 2 with game forcing hands. It's analogous to Two-Way Stayman over a (usually weak) 1NT opening.
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#11 User is offline   helene_t 

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Posted 2024-April-11, 03:00

1d-1s
1n
is the most awkward one so let's focus on that one.
Compared to SA-like systems, Precision has less need for offshape 1nt rebids because responder won't take false preference so rebidding 2d with 1444 is relatively safe. And you can rebid 2h with some 14 counts.
I read in an old book that opener's 2c rebid shows five but I think that's a minority views. On the other hand, it's nice if 2c shows five in a specific minor but really it's just when responder is specifically 5422 that it's a problem. So I think it's reasonable to let the 1nt rebid show a balanced hand. Or 2452. Or 1435 if you play a modern style in which that's a 1d opening.

As for responder's rebid, I think xyz is not so great if opener can have a singleton spades. In that case you need to bid differently with 5 spades and with 6. Maybe something with 2c asking for the number of spades would work.
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#12 User is offline   mycroft 

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Posted 2024-April-11, 10:17

Agree with Helene. If you play Checkback, you pretty much have to agree "I don't bid NT with a singleton in your suit".

But then again, I think that's a problem anyway, because responder with exactly 5, weak, is put in an impossible position.
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#13 User is offline   helene_t 

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Posted 2024-April-11, 16:08

View Postmycroft, on 2024-April-11, 10:17, said:

But then again, I think that's a problem anyway, because responder with exactly 5, weak, is put in an impossible position.

Maybe you could play transfer checkbacks, including
2=ostensibly weak with 6 spades
2=weak with 5 spades and support for one or both minors

A disadvantage of the above is that when opener has a singleton spades, we may be playing 3 instead of 2.

So you could play something involving 2 asking for the number of spades, then
2..
..2(one spade): a weak hand pass or bid 2 with five spades, or 2 with six

Since all weak hands bid 2, responder's other options are
2: invitational with five spades and diamond tolerance
2: invitational with 4+hearts and therefore five spades
2: invitational with six spades

A disadvantage of this is that responder can't sign off in 2 with only four spades. But maybe that's not so bad in a system with a limited 1 opening since many of those hands could just have passed the 1 opening.
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#14 User is offline   blackshoe 

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Posted 2024-April-13, 19:34

For me, 1-1Maj;2 shows (10)11-15 not balanced, at least eight cards in the minors, so 53, 35, and 44 are possible, as is (54). Opener with six diamonds will rebid 2 and with six clubs would have opened 2.
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