[MickyB]

Scoring: MP

RHO opens 1♣. Double or overcall?
What's your call after (1♣)-1♥-(P)-2♦, (3♣)?
2♦ from partner was forcing.

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[whereagles]

Bidding 4♣ here. I don't know what pard will make of it, but I got a plan whatever he bids:

Opposite 4♦ I bid 5.
Opposite 4♥ I pass.
Opposite 4♠ I bid 5♣ to show the void.

Note: if pard bids 4♠, then he probably took 4♣ as a cue with diamond fit.

In any case I'm kinda in an ok position of I bid 4♣.

[flytoox]

4C. If I have one more diamond I would bid 5C.

[Double !]

Well, I guess I'm having one of my Oppositional-Defiant-Disorder days or anti-establishment reactions (I was a flower child from the 60s).

I would double with this hand first for 3 reasons: 1) I don't want to rule out spades as a viable contract, 2) I think I'm good enough to rebid hearts, 3) and I have support for diamonds which I can always show after bidding hearts if it seems appropriate (which it likely will if partner bids diamonds and then takes another bid after I bid me heart suit.

Oh, NO! I just remembered: at my age, I am the so-called establishment.

In the 1960's there used to be a slogan that said "never trust anyone over 30". lol: I haven't been able to trust my self for a quarter of a century!!!!

It is very difficult to know the best bid over P's 2D forcing response to a 1-H overcall. If I know P promises a rebid, then I rebid my heart suit. Otherwise I cue 3C (implying diamond support) and rebid hearts. Seems most flexible.

[luis]

1) I bid 1♥ I don't want to defend 1♣x
2) 3♦ Support with support, 4♣ is an option but I can't see a clear path after 4♣ if pd bids 4♦

[Double !]

I dare to disagree, Luis (especially at matchpoints!)

I usually expect partner to have something like KQT5th or 6th, or QJT9xx of convert a 1-level double into penalties. If p has such a hand, I think I have enough controls to defend safely. But, an expert I ain't, so....................

[han]

Would bid 1H and 4C.

Is 3D forcing here Luis?

[MickyB]

My thoughts...

Double is yucky. May the auction continue 3C-P-4C back to you.

Luis - 3♦ sounds like a huge underbid, I'd expect a minimum overcall to compete to 3♦ here with 4 card support.

My choice at the table was 3♠. At the time I was certain it was forcing (until partner passed it), but on reflection maybe it should be showing a 5-6 intermediate hand, as we play split range Michaels. Partner's hand was Ax x KJTxxx xxxx, 3♠ didn't play quite as well as 5♦!

[luis]

Hannie, on Jul 11 2005, 06:27 PM, said:

Would bid 1H and 4C.

Is 3D forcing here Luis?

I think 3♦ is just competitive but I'm not afraid of it at MPs the worst that could happen is to get a bottom.

[scoob]

Quote

Double or overcall?

overcall

Quote

What's your call after (1♣)-1♥-(P)-2♦, (3♣)?
2♦ from partner was forcing.

4♣

[mike777]

1H THEN 3D.

Hopefully partner will be able to figure out I have length and strength in H and D from this bidding and that the opp has length and strength in clubs.

Partner knows how MP's are scored and has made a forcing 2d bid when they could have passed or cuebid clubs or raised hearts, I assume that means something and partner does not make forcing bids on random broken 6 card suits and few hcp.

My plan is if;
1) partner passes we should go plus at mp
2) partner bids 3h I bid 4h
3) partner bids 4d I bid 4h
4) partner bids 3s I bid 4s

With partner's actual hand just pass 1H, this is mp yes? Perhaps the bidding will not die and you can bid later depending on how the bidding develops. Other choice is make new suits nonforcing.

[reisig]

How can 3♠ mess up the hand? Can't partner have cards there?

[coyot]

reisig, on Jul 12 2005, 06:12 AM, said:

How can 3♠ mess up the hand? Can't partner have cards there?

Wouldn't expect him to have 4 spades, 5 diamonds and a forcing bid (implying some heart tolerance) AND enough clubs so that the LHO didn't bother to raise opening...

In other words, if partner bids 2♦ forcing with 4-1-5-3, he is crazy (and why woulnd't he bid forcing 2♣ anyway? that would definitely be a better tool to find spade fit when fearing that 1♠ would be passed by me.

So 3♠ does not really make sense. (I play two-way Michaels, either preempt or very strong, so this would show 5-6 in majors and moderate hand (approx 12-15 HCP)...

To answer the original question, overcall is enough. Partner can have values that would make 4♥ a piece of cake while his long and good club suit would not be enough to defeat 1♣ by 3-4 tricks.
Think of Kx-Qx-xxxx-KQ9xxx - enough to pass a takeout double, not seeing any good contract.. yet there would be only 2♦ and 1♠ loser - and we can well be getting only 1♥, 1-2♠, 1♦ and 2-3♣ tricks in defense...

[MickyB]

coyot, on Jul 12 2005, 12:58 PM, said:

reisig, on Jul 12 2005, 06:12 AM, said:

How can 3♠ mess up the hand?  Can't partner have cards there?

Wouldn't expect him to have 4 spades, 5 diamonds and a forcing bid (implying some heart tolerance) AND enough clubs so that the LHO didn't bother to raise opening...

In other words, if partner bids 2♦ forcing with 4-1-5-3, he is crazy (and why woulnd't he bid forcing 2♣ anyway? that would definitely be a better tool to find spade fit when fearing that 1♠ would be passed by me.

We play 2♣ there as promising a heart fit. Even if 2♦ was NF, I'd play 2♣ as either having a fit or GF strength.

[reisig]

When you bid 4♣ - does that show a void? In addition - you get better bids from partner when you give them space to bid. By bidding 3♠ - you allow more options - can always cue bid later...but 3♠ gives everyone a better shot and would tend to be 4-6- ?- ? with a good hand. Painting partner into a corner at this point demonstrates that you don't care what partner bids...since their choices are so limited.

[coyot]

MickyB, on Jul 12 2005, 07:47 AM, said:

We play 2♣ there as promising a heart fit. Even if 2♦ was NF, I'd play 2♣ as either having a fit or GF strength.

1♦-1♥-p-1♠ is not forcing but it is constructive. When I use such a bid, I expect partner to bid again (1NT, 2♥) with any solid overcall.

I will often bid 1♠ with a decent 4card if my lengths in other suits indicate that p could have 4card support (and a hand not suitable for takeout).

I would use 3♣ for fit-showing gametry and 2♣ for any strong hands (not promising fit).

[Echognome]

Speaking of painting a picture. If I bid 1♥ and then double 3♣ isn't my most likely hand type 4531? I'm surprised no one has chosen this route as it also keeps the bidding lower. I can then cue-bid 4♣ later as well.

[mikeh]

I would overcall, intending to double later if the opportunity presented itself.

After the overcall and the auction as given, I am torn between 3♠ (clearly forcing) and 4♣, unambiguously a cue in support of ♦.

My main concern about 3♠ is endplaying partner into raising ♠ with 3 good cards and weakish ♦. Can I afford to pull 4♠ to 5♦?

I do not think so.

And if there is a slam, it is likely to be in ♦, so I would like to make a clear move towards slam now: 4♣ does that, if not initially, then certainly when I bid again as I fully intend to. My hand is not good enough to bid an exclusion (or, if not exclusion, still logically void-showing) 5♣

I will bid 4♥ over 4♦, 5♣ over 4♥ or 4♠... if partner has ♥ support, he probably has extra values... without, he should have raised ♥immediately.


3♦ over 3♣ is an enormous underbid, it is purely competitive, and shows no extras. 2♦ may have been forcing but it would be bizarre if it created a forcing pass situation over 3♣, so 3♦ is forced with any real support, even on a weakish hand.

[MickyB]

Echognome, on Jul 12 2005, 04:02 PM, said:

Speaking of painting a picture.  If I bid 1♥ and then double 3♣ isn't my most likely hand type 4531?  I'm surprised no one has chosen this route as it also keeps the bidding lower.  I can then cue-bid 4♣ later as well.

Yes, 4531 or 4621. But with 3 card support and a void in their suit it is unlikely to be right to defend, and defend you might if you double now.

Not that it's awful, I just think that's too much of a risk.