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Pertner, please stop doing that!

#41 User is offline   helene_t 

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Posted 2023-December-07, 12:04

View PostAL78, on 2023-December-02, 15:30, said:

I am not familiar with 2/1 but after 1 - 1; 2, could South not cue 4 and start a cue bidding sequence?

This is not really a 2/1 issue (or even a 5-card major issue) - in all natural systems you need some way to show a forcing raise, and it doesn't make much sense to play 4 and 4 as splinters if they are the only forcing raises available. You don't always have a singleton.

You could of course agree that this specific hand starts with 2 or 2NT or whatever, but you also have to have a way to show a strong 53(32). Or maybe those hands start with 2?

On the other hand, I am not sure if 4 and 4 as control bids are that great. It doesn't help opener to evaluate their hand if 4 could be a void or a stiff or a king or an ace.

In Nightmare, 3 is forcing and that's maybe not such a bad idea. Otherwise, what about 3 or even 2NT as a generic forcing bid after the 2 rebid? You don't have a GF 5125 that often, 3 should cover more hand types than that.
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#42 User is offline   jillybean 

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Posted 2023-December-07, 13:10

View Postmikeh, on 2023-December-07, 10:46, said:

There are almost as many uses for 1C 1D 1H 1S as there are pairs using transfer responses😀 we use a simple method that I’m sure is not theoretically optimal but it seems to work ok and has the benefit of being simple (most of our agreements are anything but simple, so this is an area where we’ve been happy not to tinker…so far).

1C 1D 1H 1S is non-forcing and non invitational, promising 4=4 majors. It’s the sort of hand on which, were one 4=5 in the majors, one would pass 1H. We use xyz over 1H, so we can have 1S less than invitational, and accepting the transfer shows a minimum range opening bid, so we haven’t missed a game.

We once had the auction of 1C 1D 1H 1S 1N 2C all pass. Responder was 4=4=1=4. That worked well, but in my main partnership we can’t do that since we now open 1C on 3=3=5=2. Btw, I don’t recommend that (1C on 5=3 or 5=2 minors) without a LOT of discussion.


How do you proceed with 4=4 majors invitational hand after
1C 1D* 1H
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#43 User is offline   mikeh 

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Posted 2023-December-07, 13:30

View Postjillybean, on 2023-December-07, 13:10, said:

How do you proceed with 4=4 majors invitational hand after
1C 1D* 1H

2C


One possible variant is that 2C followed by2S is 4=5 or 4=6 invite while 1C 1D 1H 2S is 4=4 invite. Since 2S is (for most, including my partnerships) an idle bid and consumes no additional bidding space (compared to going through xyz), this is something I recommend, although it’s a bit more memory work.
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#44 User is offline   jillybean 

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Posted 2023-December-07, 21:50

We are playing 1C 1S* 1N 2C* 2D min, good diamonds and
1C 1S* 1N 2D* 2x 3D GF w/diamonds

How do you show GF with diamonds (5+) and a 4 card major?
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#45 User is offline   helene_t 

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Posted 2023-December-08, 03:29

View Postjillybean, on 2023-December-07, 21:50, said:

How do you show GF with diamonds (5+) and a 4 card major?

I would think that
1-1*
whatever-2M
is what most people would do. Maybe there is a case for inverting 2/ to make opener declare a heart contract, but I would just do natural, then you don't get lead-directing doubles against you.
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#46 User is offline   mw64ahw 

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Posted 2023-December-08, 04:38

View Postjillybean, on 2023-December-07, 13:10, said:

How do you proceed with 4=4 majors invitational hand after
1C 1D* 1H

I play a more esoteric short where 1-1 is game invitational. This allows opener to shape out, so for example
1-1
1NT balanced-2 5-card minor?
2 no - 2NT/3NT/4 both Majors GI/GF/SI
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#47 User is offline   jillybean 

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Posted 2023-December-08, 11:57

View Posthelene_t, on 2023-December-08, 03:29, said:

I would think that
1-1*
whatever-2M
is what most people would do. Maybe there is a case for inverting 2/ to make opener declare a heart contract, but I would just do natural, then you don't get lead-directing doubles against you.

Yes, 1C 1S theoretically denies a 4cM and so bidding 2M should ring alarm bells to help remember this sequence.

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#48 User is offline   mikeh 

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Posted 2023-December-08, 12:14

View Postjillybean, on 2023-December-07, 21:50, said:

We are playing 1C 1S* 1N 2C* 2D min, good diamonds and
1C 1S* 1N 2D* 2x 3D GF w/diamonds

How do you show GF with diamonds (5+) and a 4 card major?

There is absolutely no reason why 1C 1S, playing transfer responses, should deny a four card major…none!

Our alert explanation of 1S (yours won’t be quite the same since we play 1C 1N as a gf relay) is

‘He either has a balanced hand, no major, with less than game force values or he has any hand with primary diamonds’

With, say, AQxx Kx AKJxx xx, we’d bid 1S.

If partner rebids 1N, the most common rebid, we bid 2S, showing 4+ spades, longer diamonds, and gf values.

Over his second most likely rebid, 2C, again we bid 2S, showing the same description….spades, longer diamonds, gf.

Using 1S to deny a 4 card major makes it impossible for responder to show shape later. Show spades, for example, then gf with diamonds (which isn’t always easy or efficient btw) implies 5=5 or better, with spades always at least as long and often longer than diamonds.

Partnership bidding is a dialogue, and dialogues tend to produce better results when neither partner is actively distorting what they hold than when one partner feels free to claim control and prevent partner from understanding what’s going on. Distorting shape in gf auctions often breaks even but that’s a good outcome: quite often it causes auctions to go off the rails plus it is extremely hard on partnership cohesion.

Edit: removed an over the top rant…sorry about that
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#49 User is offline   mikeh 

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Posted 2023-December-08, 12:16

View Posthelene_t, on 2023-December-08, 03:29, said:

I would think that
1-1*
whatever-2M
is what most people would do. Maybe there is a case for inverting 2/ to make opener declare a heart contract, but I would just do natural, then you don't get lead-directing doubles against you.

If you play that bidding 2M after responding 1S is natural, gf, then by definition responder has a strong hand, often stronger than opener’s. Right siding isn’t much of an issue when both hands are strong, and even less of an issue when, as is often the case, responder has the stronger hand.
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#50 User is offline   jillybean 

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Posted 2023-December-08, 16:32

Thanks, I missed your rant but would guess it was something along the lines of bidding your shape properly, or perhaps not.

I did say, 1C 1S theoretically denies a 4cM so 1C 1S* 1N 2M is a wake up for me to pause and consider what is going on.
Similar to 2C/1x, there is no reason it denies a 4cM
This is all new and the opportunity to make mistakes and go over the bidding here is so useful.
Remember, I'm an average player, playing seriously maybe twice a month at the moment. This is all new, complex and a drain on my already failing memory.
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