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When is a Temporizing bid alertable?

#1 User is offline   msheald 

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Posted 2023-December-01, 14:40

Hello! I had an interesting hand today. Ops had game in spades. Responder had 13 points and 4 spades. Rather than bidding Jacoby 2NT, he bid clubs without alerting.

I'm sitting with 6 cubs to the AK. A club leads keeps the contract to 4 while any other lead ensures an overtrick. Without alerting an artificial bid for lead, my double would look like take out for hearts. Even if he had used Jacoby 2NT, I would have bid 3C for lead. It would have been even better for us if they had left us in 3C doubled.

When I asked director about that, he basically said that temporizing bids are not alertable.

I always thought temporizing bids are not alertable when they are the "least bad option;" however, when a better bid is available, "like Jacoby 2NT in this case), such temporizing bids need to be alerted.

What are the rules about alerting such temporizing bids? Best regards.

Mike
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#2 User is online   Cyberyeti 

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Posted 2023-December-01, 15:06

Depends on the exact agreement and probably jurisdiction.

Here in EBUland, I believe it's alertable if you agree to do it on pretty much anything except 3433 or it's game forcing
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#3 User is offline   steve2005 

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Posted 2023-December-01, 15:42

In ACBLland if 2 promises 3+ clubs it's not alertable.
Nobody forces you to always use Jacoby 2NT for a raise but it may be hard to show 4-card support later if you don't have special methods. Methods that later show 4-card support are likely alertable if artificial.
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#4 User is offline   smerriman 

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Posted 2023-December-01, 16:57

View Poststeve2005, on 2023-December-01, 15:42, said:

In ACBLland if 2 promises 3+ clubs it's not alertable.

Agreed. It would only be alertable if it's artificial, i.e. can include hands with 2 or less clubs. They're perfectly entitled to make a natural 2 bid if they feel for whatever reason they don't want to bid 2NT.
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#5 User is offline   msheald 

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Posted 2023-December-01, 18:44

Thanks! It is sounding like folks are saying that since responder only had 2 cubs, he should have alerted the bid?

Mike
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#6 User is offline   sfi 

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Posted 2023-December-01, 19:57

View Postmsheald, on 2023-December-01, 18:44, said:

Thanks! It is sounding like folks are saying that since responder only had 2 cubs, he should have alerted the bid?

Not necessarily - it depends on their agreement about the bid. Responder may have chosen a non-systemic bid, but that doesn't change whether or not it's alertable.
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#7 User is offline   jillybean 

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Posted 2023-December-01, 20:13

View Postmsheald, on 2023-December-01, 18:44, said:

Thanks! It is sounding like folks are saying that since responder only had 2 cubs, he should have alerted the bid?

Mike


Yes, as far as I can tell it requires an alert, **if they have the agreement that it could be 2 and it seems like a strange bid if that is not their agreement.

We alert our 2C* gf clubs or balanced, if balanced clubs could be as short as 2
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#8 User is offline   blackshoe 

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Posted 2023-December-01, 20:47

The requirement to alert a call is not based on what is in the caller's hand, but rather on what agreement the partnership has about the call. If the agreement is 3+ clubs, no alert, even if this time he bid with 2. OTOH, if he does it frequently enough, they will have an implicit agreement that does require an alert. But you cannot assume such an agreement just because he bid with two clubs. "He bid it, so they must have an agreement to bid it" is not a valid argument.
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#9 User is offline   msheald 

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Posted 2023-December-02, 06:11

It would seem to me, that if responder made an unusual response of 2 clubs with only 2 clubs in the hand, wouldn't that classify as a Psych bid? Especially if there are other "better" bids in his hand?

Here is the full hand.

https://tinyurl.com/ys6nvej8

It seems to me, that when a player forgoes a standard bid, such as a Jacoby 2NT or a diamond temporizing bid in this case, for an unusual 2club bid, that would either need to be alerted or considered a psych bid. Best regards.

Mike
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#10 User is offline   jillybean 

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Posted 2023-December-02, 07:18

Yes, a creative bid. Perhaps they don't have J2NT available but their actual agreements are unknown.
Damage? No
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#11 User is offline   bluenikki 

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Posted 2023-December-02, 07:19

That is a psych.

Of a type that used to be written up with admiration.
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#12 User is offline   jillybean 

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Posted 2023-December-02, 07:22

We love calling any bid that is unusual, unexpected, non standard or one that we don't agree with, a psyche.
2C/1M generic gf is not at all unusual where I play.
Next board please.
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#13 User is online   DavidKok 

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Posted 2023-December-02, 07:45

If this is a systemic bid I would alert the 2 response, regardless of whether it is mandatory. The style I prefer for 2 over 1M does require an alert, and can even have as few as zero clubs. I am surprised to hear that people used to get written up for something that I consider relatively minor, though it would be better still if people explained what they play.
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#14 User is offline   msheald 

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Posted 2023-December-02, 08:28

Thank you for your responses and opinions. The TD said that there are ACBL rules that discuss temporizing bids, so rather than me discussing opinion, I wanted to see what the rules actually state.

Unfortunately, my Google search of ACBL and temporizing bids shows only a couple of example documents. They suggest that temporizing bids are used when there is no better bid causing some sort of hole/space in the bidding system. However, the examples seem to exclude unusual temporizing bids like the one I describe above. This does not mean that the bid needs to be alerted or is a psych; the authors may just not have dealt with the situation.

So, does anyone know the link to the ACBL rules that discuss temporizing bids specifically? Thanks.

Mike
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#15 User is offline   P_Marlowe 

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Posted 2023-December-02, 08:36

Hi,

I am assuming he is 4432 with 2 clubs and 3 diamonds, the question is, why did he choose to bid
clubs instead of diamonds, was it due to Qx vs. xxx, or?

It is depend on jurisdiction, in Germany making a 2/1 in a minor with 3 cards without alert is ok.

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Marlowe
With kind regards
Uwe Gebhardt (P_Marlowe)
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#16 User is online   DavidKok 

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Posted 2023-December-02, 08:51

I don't think this is a temporizing bid. Normally a temporizing bid is a bid in a situation where we have limited space left, and we bid a suit cheaply in the hope that partner can take charge. Rather, I think this 2 was an artificial game force. At the same time I am concerned that the distinction is semantics only. If the ACBL defines either or both of these terms that should provide the answer.
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#17 User is offline   msheald 

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Posted 2023-December-02, 09:14

Than you for your note. I went ahead and sent an email to ACBL for help with temporizing bids. I asked about a ruing once before, and they responded quickly. I'll post the answer when I receive it. Best regards.

Mike
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#18 User is offline   jillybean 

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Posted 2023-December-02, 10:51

Super, a look forward to seeing the reply from ACBL
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#19 User is offline   bluenikki 

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Posted 2023-December-02, 17:41

View Postjillybean, on 2023-December-02, 07:22, said:

We love calling any bid that is unusual, unexpected, non standard or one that we don't agree with, a psyche.
2C/1M generic gf is not at all unusual where I play.
Next board please.

It's not a psych because it is unusual. It's a psych because its purpose is to trick the opponents. Nothing illegal or unethical about that, any more than about falsecard.
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#20 User is offline   jillybean 

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Posted 2023-December-02, 18:07

View Postbluenikki, on 2023-December-02, 17:41, said:

It's not a psych because it is unusual. It's a psych because its purpose is to trick the opponents. Nothing illegal or unethical about that, any more than about falsecard.


A psyche is a bid that grossly misstates honor or suit length. 2/1M is routinely played as artificial gf and I would guess, lacking evidence of other agreements that South is simply creating a forcing/ game forcing bid. We often leap to "psych"! when we don't understand the bid.
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