[P_Marlowe]

Hi,

x-mas is around, and our club had it's annual x-mas tournament yesterday and there is red wine
to take home, ... I am living in a wine region, more precise 3 wine regions, the name is "Weinstrasse"
and can recommend the wine we produce. But if no outsider is willing to pay for it, we are happily
drinking it ourself.

Playing MP, in the first round, you encounter the strongest pair in the room, regular team mates of
yours and pick up

♠ AQx
♥ Kxxx
♦ KQ
♣ 9xxx

You play a 5 card major system with weak NT, partner opens, opponents stay silent

1♦ - 1♥
2♣ - 3NT
4♥ - ???

Over to you.

With kind regards
Marlowe

[DavidKok]

I have no idea. Perhaps partner has a very strong 1=3=5=4 and was planning on making a delayed raise, approximately a 16- or 17-count? If so we likely belong in 6♣. I don't love the 3NT bid for that same reason - we have a fit for partner, and can't rule out slam just on hearing 2♣. Either way it's a guess now, I don't have agreements on this auction. I would probably pull to 5♣ at least, but I don't know if we should be making a more forward-going bid.

[mw64ahw]

Possibly looking at a minor suit or Moysian ♥ slam. I'm going to prevaricate and bid 4♠

[P_Marlowe]

Just to be clear, you are in unchartered territory, and you are pretty sure, your p knowes this,
and he will know / assume, that you are aware of this as well.

If you bid 4S, you will most likely get a 5C response.

[mw64ahw]

 P_Marlowe, on 2023-November-29, 06:58, said:

Just to be clear, you are in unchartered territory, and you are pretty sure, your p knowes this,
and he will know / assume, that you are aware of this as well.

If you bid 4S, you will most likely get a 5C response.

So 0355? would make me happier with 6♣

[paulg]

In my experience of Xmas bridge, the important law is to force partner make the final guess and allow you to get to the bar, so I think 5NT will do that.

[mikeh]

What does he want?

If he’s 1=3=5=4 he should be taken out and shot, if only to stop him doing this again.

The best I can do is void AQx AJxxx AQxxx: close to a jump shift over 1H but not quite.

Opposite that sort of holding, 6C rates to be a good contract….so that’s my bid.

[P_Marlowe]

Hi,

I have given you partners hand.

My hand was

♠ -
♥ AQx
♦ JT98x
♣ AKQJx

Partner did have a long think, and in the end passed.

He did not believe, that 4H would lead to a good score, but ...
it was the first board, and he had to make a decision.
Partner would have preferred 4♣ instead of 4♥.
In retrospect I think 4♥ was not a very pragmatic bid,
4♣ puts more emphasis on the club suit, but it does bury
the heart suit, and you play MP.

I am not 100% sure, if the 3NT bid denies a 5332 shape, i.e. in
my opinion there was even a (small) chance of a 8 card major suit
fit.

Dont ask me, what I would have done in partners place, another reason,
why the 4♥ bid may not been optimal.

With kind regards
Marlowe

PS: In case you wonder, we finished 3rd, i.e. I got a bottle of red wine,
our opponents on this board won. And nobody was bidding slam, i.e. 3NT+3
would have been a shared top score, 4H+1 was a shared bottom.

[P_Marlowe]

 paulg, on 2023-November-29, 08:33, said:

In my experience of Xmas bridge, the important law is to force partner make the final guess and allow you to get to the bar, so I think 5NT will do that.

We played in a former brewery, and they serve some nice craft beer, besides the standard German beer fare.

[mikeh]

I’ve rethought my answer, despite the fact that, in that answer, I got the shape right and bid the cold 6C. However, I think I was wrong to rule out 1=3=5=4.

He could easily have a hand just short of a strong jumpshift and want to invite slam via a quantitative 4N bid. In that case, why not bid 4H along the way with something like x AQx AJxxx AKxx?

However, that doesn’t change my decision to bid 6C. On any interpretation of his 4H bid, one think that is clear is that he has a good club suit….not perhaps as good as he actually held but at least AQxx and almost always better. After all, he has at most 12 hcp in the reds and should hold around 18 hcp to invite slam when I’ve shown strong spades opposite his shortness.

[mikeh]

I’ve rethought my answer, despite the fact that, in that answer, I got the shape right and bid the cold 6C. However, I think I was wrong to rule out 1=3=5=4.

He could easily have a hand just short of a strong jumpshift and want to invite slam via a quantitative 4N bid. In that case, why not bid 4H along the way with something like x AQx AJxxx AKxx?

However, that doesn’t change my decision to bid 6C. On any interpretation of his 4H bid, one think that is clear is that he has a good club suit….not perhaps as good as he actually held but at least AQxx and almost always better. After all, he has at most 12 hcp in the reds and should hold around 18 hcp to invite slam when I’ve shown strong spades opposite his shortness.

[P_Marlowe]

An open question is, what 4NT should be?
RKCB (in our agreement set this would be for hearts) or to play?

The good thing is, the seq. will not come up any time soon again.

[mw64ahw]

 P_Marlowe, on 2023-November-30, 12:29, said:

An open question is, what 4NT should be?
RKCB (in our agreement set this would be for hearts) or to play?

The good thing is, the seq. will not come up any time soon again.

What's the difference between
1♣-1♥
2♦ ...
versus the actual auction?

[mikeh]

 mw64ahw, on 2023-November-30, 18:51, said:

What's the difference between
1♣-1♥
2♦ ...
versus the actual auction?

Seriously? You’ve never heard of reverses and what they imply?

[mw64ahw]

 mikeh, on 2023-November-30, 20:14, said:

Seriously? You've never heard of reverses and what they imply?

I would have reversed on that hand with 20 total points and 3 losers assuming an honour with the ♥ bid

[P_Marlowe]

 mw64ahw, on 2023-November-30, 18:51, said:

What's the difference between
1♣-1♥
2♦ ...
versus the actual auction?

I considered it for a short time, the justification would be the huge difference
in suit quality between clubs and diamonds.
If you do it, you are planning to sell the hand as having 543? / 643 shape, it would
have worked in the given situation, but you need to make the decision
before you know, that partner has a heart suit, the value of the hand goes
down if he responds 1S, but selling AKQJx as a 6 carder is not the worst idea, if you
see trouble ahead.
If you value the hand worth as 20 after the heart response, you could make a 3C
jump shift response, ..., I would not do this due to the diamond suit quality,
it would have worked and you may reach some making 4H contracts, when others play 2C.
but again you would need to do it, before you know, partner has an opening bid.

My plan was to bid 2H over a mild preference, which would have shown 5431 and 17.

[mw64ahw]

 P_Marlowe, on 2023-November-30, 23:39, said:

I considered it for a short time, the justification would be the huge difference
in suit quality between clubs and diamonds.
If you do it, you are planning to sell the hand as having 543? / 643 shape, it would
have worked in the given situation, but you need to make the decision
before you know, that partner has a heart suit, the value of the hand goes
down if he responds 1S, but selling AKQJx as a 6 carder is not the worst idea, if you
see trouble ahead.
If you value the hand worth as 20 after the heart response, you could make a 3C
jump shift response, ..., I would not do this due to the diamond suit quality,
it would have worked and you may reach some making 4H contracts, when others play 2C.
but again you would need to do it, before you know, partner has an opening bid.

My plan was to bid 2H over a mild preference, which would have shown 5431 and 17.

So you get passed out with 3424 when partner doesn't have forcing values and game is still on or miss the slam.

This post has been edited by mw64ahw: 2023-December-01, 00:31

[mikeh]

 mw64ahw, on 2023-December-01, 00:11, said:

So you get passed out with 3424 when partner doesn't have forcing values and game is still on or miss the slam.

If the argument were between 1D 1H 3C or 1D 1H 2C, I could understand, although mildly disagree (it’s close) with the jumpshift. But a reverse isn’t merely conveying information about strength: critically, when playing in a partnership in which neither player masterminds, it conveys the information that opener has not merely a good hand (the range is wider than for a jumpshift but it definitely creates a one round force) but also longer clubs than diamonds. If north were later to own to 3H, and showed a spade void, responder (who might have a very different but good hand) would be sure that opener was 0=3=4=6, not 0=3=5=5 and so might choose the wrong trump suit.

I suppose there’s an argument that, with the suit strength disparity, the reverse won’t often lead to playing in the wrong strain, but I think it’s bad bridge to get into the habit of lying about shape in an uncontested constructive auction. Would you reverse with void AQx AKJxx Kxxxx?

Moreover, expert partnerships play quite different methods over reverses than over simple new suit rebids, so the auction would/should be markedly different. After 1C 1H 2D, most would have responder bid a forcing 3C. Thus the entire auction would be very different, but should lead to 6C anyway.

As for missing a slam….if the opps aren’t bidding when they have 9+ spades, responder can’t have a hand that passes 2C and we have a slam

We could miss a game. If you never miss a game, you’ll either be the best partnership in the world or you’ll be scoring a lot of minuses due to bidding far too many games. But, again….the opps aren’t bidding when they hold a lot of spades, so it seems improbable that partner can’t even squeak up a 2D preference…as he should often do even with 2=3 minors. Opener’s 2C bid is, for most good players not playing a strong club method, wide range. So responder strains not to pass with 8. Note that if responder has spades good enough to deter the opps, say KQxx, and is so weak that he passes 2C, you probably don’t have a game anywhere.

[P_Marlowe]

With regards to making a possible jump shift:
We play a weak NT with a wide ranging NT rebid (15-19), due to this we can respond
with sub min values to a 1 level opening.
As a consequence pushing too hard with a jump shift may get us overboard more often
than it may prevent us from getting passed out too low.

Coincidently, we had a reverse auction that started the same, i.e.

1♣ - 1♥
2♦ - ...

and partner passed 2♦

The contract went 1 off, the score was middle of the road, I dont recall the hand, I think
I had a stiff heart, King or Ace and maybe 1NT would have worked out better.
But I was not willing to accept the possible costs of causing trouble with the follow ups
of the 1NT rebid structure.

In the end you have to decide, what risks you are taking.

[mw64ahw]

 mikeh, on 2023-December-01, 01:09, said:

If the argument were between 1D 1H 3C or 1D 1H 2C, I could understand, although mildly disagree (it’s close) with the jumpshift. But a reverse isn’t merely conveying information about strength: critically, when playing in a partnership in which neither player masterminds, it conveys the information that opener has not merely a good hand (the range is wider than for a jumpshift but it definitely creates a one round force) but also longer clubs than diamonds. If north were later to own to 3H, and showed a spade void, responder (who might have a very different but good hand) would be sure that opener was 0=3=4=6, not 0=3=5=5 and so might choose the wrong trump suit.

I suppose there’s an argument that, with the suit strength disparity, the reverse won’t often lead to playing in the wrong strain, but I think it’s bad bridge to get into the habit of lying about shape in an uncontested constructive auction. Would you reverse with void AQx AKJxx Kxxxx?

Moreover, expert partnerships play quite different methods over reverses than over simple new suit rebids, so the auction would/should be markedly different. After 1C 1H 2D, most would have responder bid a forcing 3C. Thus the entire auction would be very different, but should lead to 6C anyway.

As for missing a slam….if the opps aren’t bidding when they have 9+ spades, responder can’t have a hand that passes 2C and we have a slam

We could miss a game. If you never miss a game, you’ll either be the best partnership in the world or you’ll be scoring a lot of minuses due to bidding far too many games. But, again….the opps aren’t bidding when they hold a lot of spades, so it seems improbable that partner can’t even squeak up a 2D preference…as he should often do even with 2=3 minors. Opener’s 2C bid is, for most good players not playing a strong club method, wide range. So responder strains not to pass with 8. Note that if responder has spades good enough to deter the opps, say KQxx, and is so weak that he passes 2C, you probably don’t have a game anywhere.

I'm not an expert, but would play 2NT through to 3♦ as a minimum in this auction with 2♠ GF/SI asking for shape clarification.